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Origin of life - a response

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  • #46
    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Miller alone is not a reliable evidence, because no research on his part and his religious Creationist agenda. Need peer reviewd indepenednt sources.
    Source: Miller

    With Hoyle’s 747 having lumbered down various runways, nearly all origins of life (OOL) researchers came to recognize that the appearance of the first cell could not have been a matter of sheer dumb luck.33

    33. Jack Trevors and David Abel, “Chance and Necessity Do Not Explain the Origin of Life,” Cell Biology International 28, no. 11 (2004): 729–39, doi:10.1016/J.CELLBI.2004.06.006.

    Source

    © Copyright Original Source



    Also it is not a good idead to selectively cite Harold J. Morowitz.
    So do you disagree with him, then?

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
      Source: Miller

      With Hoyle’s 747 having lumbered down various runways, nearly all origins of life (OOL) researchers came to recognize that the appearance of the first cell could not have been a matter of sheer dumb luck.33

      33. Jack Trevors and David Abel, “Chance and Necessity Do Not Explain the Origin of Life,” Cell Biology International 28, no. 11 (2004): 729–39, doi:10.1016/J.CELLBI.2004.06.006.

      Source

      © Copyright Original Source

      Miller may begin with hydrothermal vents, but as The Lurch described and the references I gave Miller unethically misrepresents the energy relationships in abiogenesis. First in assuming the energy involved. No 'racecar' necessary, and assuming the requirements of the early stages of abiogenesis have the same energy relationships as the more complex life that would be the LUCA.

      So do you disagree with him, then?

      Blessings,
      Lee
      No, I disagree with your selective unethical citation of his work to justify your agenda.
      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

      go with the flow the river knows . . .

      Frank

      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
        But I was taking Miller's starting point, in hydrothermal vents.
        Which we know release sufficient chemical to power modern metabolisms. And you claimed they didn't have sufficient power to handle extremely primitive cells. It's a phenomenally dumb statement.

        Your attempted way around it is to claim they don't have a sufficient proton gradient to power ATP production. But, as i just pointed out, ATP production probably didn't evolve for millions of years after primitive cells had formed.

        The whole argument is just completely nonsensical. I realize you're just parroting someone else, and it's not ultimately your fault that the argument exists. But you could show some original thinking and reject it.
        "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
          But I was taking Miller's starting point, in hydrothermal vents.

          Blessings,
          Lee
          I would add, neither Miller nor you are beginning with the primitive simple pre-life forms of the hydrothermal vents. You begin with the life forms we know of after LUCA.
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
            No, I disagree with your selective unethical citation of his work to justify your agenda.
            How is this cherry-picking, though?

            I would add, neither Miller nor you are beginning with the primitive simple pre-life forms of the hydrothermal vents.
            Yes, we are beginning with the primitive simple pre-life forms of the hydrothermal vents. What is being argued is that the most promising energy source, the proton gradient, is much too small.

            Blessings,
            Lee
            "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
              Which we know release sufficient chemical to power modern metabolisms. And you claimed they didn't have sufficient power to handle extremely primitive cells. It's a phenomenally dumb statement.
              But that's not what is being said.

              Your attempted way around it is to claim they don't have a sufficient proton gradient to power ATP production. But, as i just pointed out, ATP production probably didn't evolve for millions of years after primitive cells had formed.
              That is sheer speculation, though.

              Blessings,
              Lee
              "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                But that's not what is being said.
                Unless you change your whole story telling line. That is what is being said.


                That is sheer speculation, though.
                That describes your whole story line in one brief sentence.
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                  But that's not what is being said.
                  Then explain what, exactly, is being said.

                  Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                  That is sheer speculation, though.
                  Lee's argument, this entire thread: ATP production through environmental proton gradients couldn't have evolved at hydrothermal vents.

                  Me: It probably didn't evolve through that mechanism.

                  Lee's response: That's sheer speculation!

                  Me:
                  "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
                    Then explain what, exactly, is being said.
                    The most promising energy production, that of proton transport, finds its most likely candidate in hydrothermal vents, yet the power there is much less than the power that is required by cells.

                    Lee's response: That's sheer speculation!

                    Me:
                    Well, the speculation is this: "as i just pointed out, ATP production probably didn't evolve for millions of years after primitive cells had formed."

                    Blessings,
                    Lee
                    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                      The most promising energy production, that of proton transport, finds its most likely candidate in hydrothermal vents, yet the power there is much less than the power that is required by cells.
                      This is demonstrated as false. No 'race car' necessary.


                      Well, the speculation is this: "as i just pointed out, ATP production probably didn't evolve for millions of years after primitive cells had formed."
                      Again . . . again. . . and again, not just speculation. The problem as usual your 'argument from ignorance' does not provide any evidence that would determine what cannot happen.
                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                        The most promising energy production, that of proton transport, finds its most likely candidate in hydrothermal vents, yet the power there is much less than the power that is required by cells.
                        That's simply false. There are many many promising means of energy production. Proton transport doesn't even play a role until you've already got an ATP based metabolism.

                        Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                        Well, the speculation is this: "as i just pointed out, ATP production probably didn't evolve for millions of years after primitive cells had formed."
                        The whole point of the argument you're promoting is that an ATP-focused metabolism generated by proton transport is REALLY HARD. I'm actually agreeing with that. It's right. So what's the scientific alternative? A non-ATP focused metabolism that later evolved to use ATP. In that sense, it's far less speculative than the arguments you're advancing - the scientific one, which is that proton-gradient-powered production of ATP was present in the earliest cells (which, again, is really hard and therefore unlikely) or, your preferred, non-scientific alternative, that magic happened.
                        "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

                        Comment


                        • #57

                          Source: https://scitechdaily.com/searching-for-the-chemistry-of-life-possible-new-way-to-create-dna-base-pairs-discovered/



                          Searching for the Chemistry of Life: Possible New Way to Create DNA Base Pairs Discovered

                          TOPICS:BiochemistryDeutsches Elektronen-SynchrotronDNA
                          By DEUTSCHES ELEKTRONEN-SYNCHROTRON DESY OCTOBER 29, 2020

                          Artist’s impression of young Earth. Credit: NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center Conceptual Image Lab

                          In the search for the chemical origins of life, researchers have found a possible alternative path for the emergence of the characteristic DNA pattern: According to the experiments, the characteristic DNA base pairs can form by dry heating, without water or other solvents. The team led by Ivan Halasz from the Ruđer Bošković Institute and Ernest Meštrović from the pharmaceutical company Xellia presents its observations from DESY’s X-ray source PETRA III in the journal Chemical Communications.

                          “One of the most intriguing questions in the search for the origin of life is how the chemical selection occurred and how the first biomolecules formed,” says Tomislav Stolar from the Ruđer Bošković Institute in Zagreb, the first author on the paper. While living cells control the production of biomolecules with their sophisticated machinery, the first molecular and supramolecular building blocks of life were likely created by pure chemistry and without enzyme catalysis. For their study, the scientists investigated the formation of nucleobase pairs that act as molecular recognition units in the Deoxyribonucleic Acid (DNA).

                          © Copyright Original Source






                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Source: SciTechDaily

                            One of the most intriguing questions in the search for the origin of life is how the chemical selection occurred and how the first biomolecules formed, says Tomislav Stolar from the Ruđer Bošković Institute in Zagreb, the first author on the paper. While living cells control the production of biomolecules with their sophisticated machinery, the first molecular and supramolecular building blocks of life were likely created by pure chemistry and without enzyme catalysis. For their study, the scientists investigated the formation of nucleobase pairs that act as molecular recognition units in the Deoxyribonucleic Acid (DNA).

                            © Copyright Original Source


                            Well, this is a small step, even a bit of a misstep, they didn't create pairs, they apparently created groups of four molecules, while pairs are needed. Are they stable? And are they racemic? They don't say.

                            Blessings,
                            Lee
                            "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                              Well, that may be, but see the quote by Harold Morowitz the biophysicist above.


                              I believe England could be characterized as a biophysicist:

                              Source: Wikipedia

                              England earned a bachelor's degree in biochemistry from Harvard in 2003.

                              Source

                              © Copyright Original Source



                              Blessings,
                              Lee
                              Wikipedia is a limited source, you need to go deeper, and not selectively cite this source or that. It is true that in present research into abiogenesis the first primitive cellular life that the evolution of ATP likely came later.

                              All these sources cited need to be put in context.
                              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                              go with the flow the river knows . . .

                              Frank

                              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                              Comment

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