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Trump fires 4th Inspector General.

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  • Originally posted by DivineOb View Post
    Your link defaults to only displaying 13 results, with the USA at 8th place. Expand it to 50 and and the USA is at... 8th. What do you think your link proves that is beneficial to your case?
    Take a look at #2 and then re-read Jim's list o' countries with supposedly "great response".
    That's what
    - She

    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
    - Stephen R. Donaldson

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
      Take a look at #2 and then re-read Jim's list o' countries with supposedly "great response".
      Bill changed the metric and thinks that means my post was wrong. Yeah, if you change the metric then the results will not match. That is pretty much a tautology - different measurements systems typically do give different results, but bill thinks it means 'oxmixmudd was wrong'.

      Your point would be more precisely to say - raw death count is not as good a measure of success as deaths per million, and then we could discuss when and if that is true or false.

      But my post was correct bill. The USA has the most cases, and the most deaths of any nation in the world. And that is the metric I used as an example of Trump bungling the covid-19 response. There are plenty of other metrics that show the same thing, including yours. the us should not be 8th in deaths per million BTC, not if the pandemic had been handled properly. We are worse than S.Korea, Germany, Canada, Russia (though may not for long) etc etc. We lead the world in deaths, and likely will for a while. Though there are a number of countries where it is out of control (Brazil, Mexico, Russia etc) and they may one day pass us. But my point stands - Trump completely bungled our response, and continues to bungle it, and likely will never get it right, because he is focused on short term appearances and what inflates his ego, not what experts in the field are telling him.
      Last edited by oxmixmudd; 05-21-2020, 09:54 AM.
      My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

      If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

      This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

      Comment


      • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
        There is way to much hatred and irrational ranting in this post for me to even bother. You likely wouldn't comprehend the response anyway.
        Hatred? From the man who can't keep Trump out of basically ANY thread?

        I would also remind you that accusations of lying require substantiation, keeping in mind for something I say to be 'a lie' I must know it to be untrue. I assure you none of my post contains comments stated as true that I know to be untrue.
        True. You're think your opinions are factual, and your opinions are typically crap. Lying implies you know the truth.

        So - do you feel better now that you've gotten all that off your chest?
        What? Explaining that your opinions are not facts? Sure, whatever.

        ETA:

        I will concede that if the metric used is deaths per million, UK is doing worse than the US. Of course, the metric I was using was NOT deaths per million, but the total number of cases and the total number of deaths. But even using your metric, S.Korea and Germany still beat us, as does China, and Russia, and Denmark, and Canada and ... shall I go on?
        Please do. It shows you still don't know what I am even talking about. But here's another one:

        Capture1.GIF

        How does mortality differ across countries?
        One of the most important ways to measure the burden of COVID-19 is mortality. Countries throughout the world have reported very different case fatality ratios – the number of deaths divided by the number of confirmed cases. Differences in mortality numbers can be caused by:

        Differences in the number of people tested: With more testing, more people with milder cases are identified. This lowers the case-fatality ratio.
        Demographics: For example, mortality tends to be higher in older populations.
        Characteristics of the healthcare system: For example, mortality may rise as hospitals become overwhelmed and have fewer resources.
        Other factors, many of which remain unknown.
        That's what
        - She

        Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
        - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

        I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
        - Stephen R. Donaldson

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
          Hatred? From the man who can't keep Trump out of basically ANY thread?



          True. You're think your opinions are factual, and your opinions are typically crap. Lying implies you know the truth.



          What? Explaining that your opinions are not facts? Sure, whatever.



          Please do. It shows you still don't know what I am even talking about. But here's another one:

          [ATTACH=CONFIG]44866[/ATTACH]

          How does mortality differ across countries?
          One of the most important ways to measure the burden of COVID-19 is mortality. Countries throughout the world have reported very different case fatality ratios – the number of deaths divided by the number of confirmed cases. Differences in mortality numbers can be caused by:

          Differences in the number of people tested: With more testing, more people with milder cases are identified. This lowers the case-fatality ratio.
          Demographics: For example, mortality tends to be higher in older populations.
          Characteristics of the healthcare system: For example, mortality may rise as hospitals become overwhelmed and have fewer resources.
          Other factors, many of which remain unknown.
          you are one confused puppy. Do you even know what point you are trying to make?Do you suppose I'm not aware of the facts you list above? Do you suppose that if you just randomly talk about different numbers and different measurements it will change the truth of my original comments?

          The US naive mortality (#deaths/#cases)*100 is 5.95%. That is worse than Germany(4.6%), and worse than S. Korea (2.34%). I don't think anything has yet changed Bill.

          But if you wish to discuss which metric is the best metric of success in the covid-19 response, until good treatments or a vaccine has been produced, mortality is not as good a measure as spread of the disease, because different demographics will have different mortalities due to the change in mortality with age and health, and as you point out, mortality is also influenced by total per capita testing due to asymptomatic or mild cases that go unreported. The best measure of success then is containment. Are we keeping the disease from spreading. That is where Trump has completely failed. And that is where - for now at least - S.Korea is light years ahead of us. And if we look at nations with a large number of cases (>50,000), only Spain and Belgium (barely) exceeds us in cases per million.

          If you wish to switch from mortality to deaths per million, then your case is a bit stronger, because deaths per million is an indirect measure of spread, but again demographics like age and quality of medical care come into play. There is also the fact that countries getting the disease later in the process benefit from lessons learned early in the process. If we look at deaths per million, again, of the 3 countries I mentioned in my original post, only the UK exceeds us. Germany and S. Korea are better. Other nations - nations that also delayed or bungled their responses similarly to Trump - spain, italy, france, UK, are worse than the US.

          But pick your metric, Our response has been bad from day 1. Which nations are worse depend on the metric picked, but of the 3 I mentioned, Germany and S.Korea are better no matter which one you pick. And out response continues to be bad. We are still disorganized and fractured, and we have no real leadership above the state level.
          Last edited by oxmixmudd; 05-21-2020, 10:29 AM.
          My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

          If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

          This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

          Comment


          • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
            you are one confused puppy. Do you even know what point you are trying to make?
            Of course I do. The US had PREDICTED 2 Million deaths. We are barely at 5% of that prediction. That is a HUGE win. Leftist prats like you refuse to acknowledge that.

            Do you suppose I'm not aware of the facts you list above? Do you suppose that if you just randomly talk about different numbers and different measurements it will change the truth of my original comments?
            If you were aware, you'd admit that limiting deaths to 5% of the initial forecast is a YUUUGE success. I'll wait...

            The US naive mortality (#deaths/#cases)*100 is 5.95%. That is worse than Germany(4.6%), and worse than S. Korea (2.34%). I don't think anything has yet changed Bill.
            But it is still significant that we are comparably close to several Western countries that had different approaches to the virus.

            But if you wish to discuss which metric is the best metric of success in the covid-19 response, until good treatments or a vaccine has been produced, mortality is not as good a measure as spread of the disease, because different demographics will have different mortalities due to the change in mortality with age and health.
            Then you are at odds with the good folks at Johns Hopkins, who said "One of the most important ways to measure the burden of COVID-19 is mortality."

            The best measure of success is containment.
            You are wrong. The best measure of success is how many people get better.

            Are we keeping the disease from spreading. That is where Trump has completely failed. And that is where - for now at least - S.Korea is light years ahead of us. And if we look at nations with a large number of cases (>50,000), only Spain and Belgium (barely) exceeds us in cases per million.
            And our recovery rate is nearly identical to other countries as well. People are going to get it until a vaccine is developed. The question is not how many, but when.

            Our response has been bad from day 1.
            False

            And it continues to be bad.
            False. It has kept the predicted deaths down to 5% of the initial models.

            We are disorganized and fractured,
            Because we have 50 governors doing 50 things.

            we have no real leadership above the state level.
            False. It's there. You just don't like them.
            That's what
            - She

            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
            - Stephen R. Donaldson

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
              Of course I do. The US had PREDICTED 2 Million deaths. We are barely at 5% of that prediction. That is a HUGE win. Leftist prats like you refuse to acknowledge that.
              IIRC, the initial estimate was between something like 1.2 and 2 million deaths.

              Although I've heard some news outlets say or imply otherwise the models did factor in quarantines and social distancing

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                Of course I do. The US had PREDICTED 2 Million deaths. We are barely at 5% of that prediction. That is a HUGE win. Leftist prats like you refuse to acknowledge that.
                That's just ridiculous. 2 milion deaths is what happens if we do nothing and just let it run amok (at a 1.5% mortality and 50% total infected). That is NOT the prediction with intervention. We are at 96000 and likely will see above 150,000 when if the administration had been on the ball and done what they needed to do, we could be at a fraction of that. And that is why it's a failure. 10's of thousands dead that did not need to die is NOT success.

                ...


                But it is still significant that we are comparably close to several Western countries that had different approaches to the virus.
                Not really. Not when we had more time to prepare but bungled it along so that we did worse than them instead of better.



                Then you are at odds with the good folks at Johns Hopkins, who said "One of the most important ways to measure the burden of COVID-19 is mortality."
                "Burden of COVID-19" vs "Measure of Success". I am not 'at odds' with JHU, I'm simply talking about something else. They are talking about it's impact on the medical system and society, I am talking about how to know we are beating the disease. They are intertwined to be sure, but to measure our success in stopping the disease, we need to see it stop spreading. If we want to know what the impact is on our medical system, we need to know the mortality against the current number of cases.


                And our recovery rate is nearly identical to other countries as well. People are going to get it until a vaccine is developed. The question is not how many, but when.
                Until the vaccine the issue is how many die/unit time. Because the higher that number is, the less likely the medical system is to be able to cope with it.


                Because we have 50 governors doing 50 things ...
                Because we have a federal government that dropped the ball. They wouldn't be doing 50 different things if instead of creating chaos, ignoring science and the experts, and trying to get revenge against Democratic Governors, the president was actually driving the various entities to work together to find the best solution possible based on the best possible data.
                Last edited by oxmixmudd; 05-21-2020, 11:35 AM.
                My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                Comment


                • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                  What is the testing rates of most of the world, Mr ‘intellectual’?
                  You seem to really want to discuss this. Point me to the data you want me to see and I'll take a look.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    IIRC, the initial estimate was between something like 1.2 and 2 million deaths.

                    Although I've heard some news outlets say or imply otherwise the models did factor in quarantines and social distancing
                    rogue - unless you specify exactly what the parameters of the prediction were you are talking out your dairy air*. Predictions are based on assumptions Mortality, rate of spread. Early predictions were used to show what would happen with and without interventions, and most of the early projections were based on current conditions, that is why they changed over time. And there are different levels of quarantine and social distancing. Percentages staying home vs percentages out and about. That is quite different when in lock down vs not in lock down.

                    The issue is that Trump and the admin did not respond quickly or in a timely fashion. They tried to play it down, they refused to get production of PPE ramped up etc until after things started to fall apart. They had warning after warning and they did not act. That is failure. Whatever the numbers were predicted to be vs what they are is irrelevant. Saying you were successful because the worst case didn't happen is nothing more than spin. And lame spin at that.

                    The simple fact is the current numbers could have been MUCH better than they are if they'd have stopped being idiots and acted on the information and knowledge they had at the time. That is the bottom line. And that is why the Trump administration response has been and continues to be a disaster.

                    The are STILL ignoring the science. They are STILL ignoring realities over spin. They are STILL exhibiting and encouraging behaviors that will make the pandemic worse, not better.

                    *For example, your numbers might have been with mitigations if they were using higher mortality and assuming symptoms == sick. Early assumed spread and mortality factors that did not reflect the true character of the disease in the early predictions is NOT something the Trump administration can claim credit for in their self awarded 'success' rating.
                    Last edited by oxmixmudd; 05-21-2020, 11:43 AM.
                    My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                    If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                    This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by DivineOb View Post
                      You seem to really want to discuss this. Point me to the data you want me to see and I'll take a look.
                      You’re the one that claims to be superior, you tell me. It’s really easy to google. Tell us what it is.
                      "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                      GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                        rogue - unless you specify exactly what the parameters of the prediction were you are talking out your dairy air*. Predictions are based on assumptions Mortality, rate of spread. Early predictions were used to show what would happen with and without interventions, and most of the early projections were based on current conditions, that is why they changed over time. And there are different levels of quarantine and social distancing. Percentages staying home vs percentages out and about. That is quite different when in lock down vs not in lock down.

                        The issue is that Trump and the admin did not respond quickly or in a timely fashion. They tried to play it down, they refused to get production of PPE ramped up etc until after things started to fall apart. They had warning after warning and they did not act. That is failure. Whatever the numbers were predicted to be vs what they are is irrelevant. Saying you were successful because the worst case didn't happen is nothing more than spin. And lame spin at that.

                        The simple fact is the current numbers could have been MUCH better than they are if they'd have stopped being idiots and acted on the information and knowledge they had at the time. That is the bottom line. And that is why the Trump administration response has been and continues to be a disaster.

                        The are STILL ignoring the science. They are STILL ignoring realities over spin. They are STILL exhibiting and encouraging behaviors that will make the pandemic worse, not better.

                        *For example, your numbers might have been with mitigations if they were using higher mortality and assuming symptoms == sick. Early assumed spread and mortality factors that did not reflect the true character of the disease in the early predictions is NOT something the Trump administration can claim credit for in their self awarded 'success' rating.
                        The Trump admin responded, you’re just too filled with hate to care.
                        "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                        GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                          That's just ridiculous. 2 milion deaths is what happens if we do nothing and just let it run amok.
                          And since we are NOT at 2 Million because of the measures enacted by the POTUS... c'mon Jimmy... you can say it!!!

                          That is NOT the prediction with intervention.
                          Which we are doing, and have been since January.

                          We are at 96000 and likely will see above 150,000
                          Meaning the measures taken by the federal and state governments are working remarkably well.

                          when if the administration had been on the ball and done what they needed to do, we could be at a fraction of that.
                          They did. That's why we aren't at 2 Million. So, can I drop the mic on you NOW?

                          And that is why it's a failure. 10's of thousands dead that did not need to die is NOT success.
                          In terms of epidemiology, it is a RAGING success.


                          Not really. Not when we had more time to prepare but bungled it along so that we did worse than them instead of better.
                          Just absolutely false. We did what we needed to do to keep the numbers down as much as possible. And they are down dramatically from what was predicted.


                          "Burden of COVID-19" vs "Measure of Success". I am not 'at odds' with JHU, I'm simply talking about something else.
                          Yeah. Actual measurable stats versus political claptrap.

                          They are talking about it's impact on the medical system and society, I am talking about how to know we are beating the disease.
                          So, when we say "Unless you do something, 2 Million people will die" and we do something, and 2 Million people DON'T die, that's how we know we are beating it. When survivability rates are over 95%, that's how we know we are beating it. That we are not overwhelming the medical system is how we know we are beating it.

                          They are intertwined to be sure, but to measure our success in stopping the disease, we need to see it stop spreading. If we want to know what the impact is on our medical system, we need to know the mortality against the current number of cases.
                          Epidemiologist models say that if we did nothing, 80% of the US population would contract the virus. It isn't going to stop spreading. We did what was necessary to slow it so our hospitals could keep up.


                          Because we have a federal government that dropped the ball.
                          False. Your own numbers cited in the beginning of this post prove you wrong.

                          They wouldn't be doing 50 different things if instead of creating chaos, ignoring science and the experts, and trying to get revenge against Democratic Governors, the president was actually driving the various entities to work together to find the best solution possible based on the best possible data.
                          This is just an asinine comment that shows a lack of care about truth and ultra-partisan hackery.
                          That's what
                          - She

                          Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                          - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                          I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                          - Stephen R. Donaldson

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                            You’re the one that claims to be superior, you tell me. It’s really easy to google. Tell us what it is.
                            Dear lord you are lazy.

                            Here is the link I found. It shows we are 9th in testing per million despite being 1st in number of cases and deaths. What is the point you are trying to make?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by DivineOb View Post
                              Dear lord you are lazy.

                              Here is the link I found. It shows we are 9th in testing per million despite being 1st in number of cases and deaths. What is the point you are trying to make?
                              I knew it was there and have even shared that link several times dear. I see you still need help, what’s the rest of the world’s testing rates?

                              FYI, try this:
                              https://www.worldometers.info/corona...n=homeAdUOA?Si
                              Last edited by lilpixieofterror; 05-21-2020, 12:19 PM.
                              "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                              GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                                I knew it was there and have even shared that link several times dear. I see you still need help, what’s the rest of the world’s testing rates?
                                My link shows that our testing rate is ~35k per million. The countries above us are testing at around 300k-400k per million!

                                How does this data make your point?

                                Comment

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