B Theory Of Time...

[JimL]

Wrong. This is where we always get into the same argument. You can only make a decision once, and can't go back and change it. Even in A-theory. So from a future viewpoint all of your past choices are fixed. That doesn't mean they weren't free will actions. It just means that once they are made, they cannot be changed. They are fixed. Same with the future. You may decide to eat steak tomorrow, or chicken. Either one would be your free will choice. Just because someone in the future knows that choice doesn't mean it isn't your free will that made it. You just don't know what it will be at this time. If you will choose steak, then someone in the future would know you chose steak. If you choose chicken they would know you chose chicken. If they could come back in time, they would know what your choice will be before you do. It doesn't mean your choice wasn't done freely, just that they know what it is.

What you seem to be confusing with respect to B-theory is that the future is fixed in the same way as the past is fixed. If all of time exists and each moment is coextant with every other moment, the future coextant with the past, then you are not actually choosing your future anymore than you can change your past, you are just experiencing it. How do you change that which is forever fixed in time? It's like your reel of film example, the whole reel exists, each cell on the reel exists, but you only experience each individual cell once it is projected on the screen.

This scenario is impossible (knowing the future) in A-theory. Therefore the only way God can know the future is to cause it.

In that we agree.

In B-theory, he can know your future choices, but they are still your choices. And they can only be made once. Whatever way you choose, that is what God will know, and what will be "fixed" in the block universe.

See above. In that we disagree. If time is fixed from gods perspective, then it is fixed whether we experience it as such or not.

[Sparko]

What you seem to be confusing with respect to B-theory is that the future is fixed in the same way as the past is fixed. If all of time exists and each moment is coextant with every other moment, the future coextant with the past, then you are not actually choosing your future anymore than you can change your past, you are just experiencing it. How do you change that which is forever fixed in time? It's like your reel of film example, the whole reel exists, each cell on the reel exists, but you only experience each individual cell once it is projected on the screen.

In that we agree.

See above. In that we disagree. If time is fixed from gods perspective, then it is fixed whether we experience it as such or not.

No because future actions are always based on past actions (choices) - if that weren't the case then the entire universe would be chaotic with events happening for no reason at all. You just don't understand how B-theory works. You and I have been at this point of the discussion many times, and is what I expressed frustration at when I saw you post in this thread back at the beginning. I have learned that your ignorance on this topic is unbreakable. It is not worth my time trying to explain it to you yet again. We will just have to disagree and move on.

[JimL]

No because future actions are always based on past actions (choices)

You're confusing the unconscious cause and effect nature of the world with conscious free will. Free will choices are not based on past actions. You might have chosen chocalate in the past but choose vaniila in the future.

- if that weren't the case then the entire universe would be chaotic with events happening for no reason at all.

Not in the case of conscious free will, the choices free willed beings would make wouldn't result in chaos, they just wouldn't be determined choices.

You just don't understand how B-theory works. You and I have been at this point of the discussion many times, and is what I expressed frustration at when I saw you post in this thread back at the beginning. I have learned that your ignorance on this topic is unbreakable. It is not worth my time trying to explain it to you yet again. We will just have to disagree and move on.

Actually it's your own understanding that doesn't make sense, which is why I said you are confused. You are trying to fit A-theory into B-theory which are contradictory theories. What you are suggesting is that the future, your future actions already exist, but that you freely chose those future actions. That's the logical contradiction you're asserting, which you never give explaination to.

[Sparko]

You're confusing the unconscious cause and effect nature of the world with conscious free will. Free will choices are not based on past actions. You might have chosen chocalate in the past but choose vaniila in the future.

that's not what I mean. I mean you will have to consider what you want for dinner, then choose what to make, then make it, then eat it. It is a progression of past actions and thinking to future choices. Your actions don't just happen with no cause or reason.

Not in the case of conscious free will, the choices free willed beings would make wouldn't result in chaos, they just wouldn't be determined choices.

What determines them JimL?

[JimL]

that's not what I mean. I mean you will have to consider what you want for dinner, then choose what to make, then make it, then eat it. It is a progression of past actions and thinking to future choices. Your actions don't just happen with no cause or reason.

That's not B-theory, Sparko. In B-theory the choices you end up making at t2 exist, they are just as real, as your consideration to make those choices at t1.[/B] Your consideration to have bacon for breakfast at t1, and your choice to make it at time t2, and your eating of it at t3, are coextent realities in B-theory. You don't move from t1 to t3, all points in time are coextant, the past as real as the future. Put it this way, in B-theory the only difference between 1800 and 2040 is the points in which events are located along the otherwise static time line. In B-theory, you are not moving into the future and making free willed choices as you go, you are already there, and always have been there for as long as the universe has existed. In the block universe all of time, and all events in time, have existed for as long as the universe itself has existed.

What determines them JimL?

Conscious free willed beings, of course.

[Jim B.]

Because in A-theory there is no future for God to see from "outside"

God would only be seeing the future from our perspective. there is no future from his perspective, only an eternal present.

[Jim B.]

If it is a clockwork, purely deterministic universe from gods perspective, then it doesn't matter what our perspective is, it will still be a clockwork purely deterministic universe. Our perspective of a not yet existing future from the inside would be an illusion, an illusion because we can't see the future which already exist that god can see. If god can see all of time from the outside perspective, then the future already exists whether we can see that from the inside or not. The future can not both exist and not exist depending upon ones perspective, it either exists or it doesn't exist. One perspective would be real, the other would be an illusion.

It's not the future for God. You keep thinking of it as our future that God can 'already see' that is hidden from us. It is the future within the time series but it is not that tense for God. God is not 'ahead of us' because that's already implying that God is in our future seeing what we haven't yet seen.

Then our perspective would be an illusion.

No, our perspective would be from within the time series. God's would be from outside the time series. It's like the question of what God's perception of space would be from outside of space. He can 'see' every location in space while not being located at any point within space. Our spatial perspective is not an 'illusion' for being located within space, even though God's perception of space would be very different from ours. Every point he perceives is potentially 'here' even though there's no 'here' of bodily location.

Again, if every moment is the present from any perspect, then every moment would be the present period. Not being aware of the existence of the future, like a god outside of time would be aware of it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist, it means we on the inside are not aware of that which already is. If the future didn't exist in actuality, then god couldn't see it, but if it does exist in actuality so that god can see it, then it exists in actuality period, whether we can see it or not.

You keep thinking of it as the future. That's like assuming that categories like 'here and there' 'near and far' apply to God. Every point in space is 'here' for God just as every moment is 'now.' That doesn't mean our limited temporal and spatial perspectives are 'illusions'.

[JimL]

It's not the future for God. You keep thinking of it as our future that God can 'already see' that is hidden from us. It is the future within the time series but it is not that tense for God. God is not 'ahead of us' because that's already implying that God is in our future seeing what we haven't yet seen.







No, our perspective would be from within the time series. God's would be from outside the time series. It's like the question of what God's perception of space would be from outside of space. He can 'see' every location in space while not being located at any point within space. Our spatial perspective is not an 'illusion' for being located within space, even though God's perception of space would be very different from ours. Every point he perceives is potentially 'here' even though there's no 'here' of bodily location.






You keep thinking of it as the future. That's like assuming that categories like 'here and there' 'near and far' apply to God. Every point in space is 'here' for God just as every moment is 'now.' That doesn't mean our limited temporal and spatial perspectives are 'illusions'.

And as I keep repeating, if every moment in time, every event in every moment of time, can be seen from outside of time, then every moment in time exists whether we, from our inside of time perspective, experience it that way or not. If god, from his outside of time perspective, can see the point in time relative to the year 3025, then the year 3025, and all the events therein, already exists. It's illogical to argue that the future exists from one perpective but that it doesn't exist from another perspective, it can only be one or the other, the future either exists or it doesn't.
Perhaps an example will help. Lets say that you are clairvoyent and could see the future, and what you see is that in the year 2022, on a monday at precisley 12:01 pm. in the afternoon, you are crossing the street and a car barrels right into you, killing you. Now, being that you are clairvoyent, is there anything you can do to change the fact that "you will be" run over in 2022 on a monday at 12:01 pm. The answer is no, because in B-theory the year 2022 on a monday at 12:01 pm. is coextant with the year 2020 on a Saturday at 6:00 pm.
And that means that it's not that "you will" be run over, it means that "you are being" run over. B-theory says that your entire life span, every point in time from your birth to your death, exists in its designated locations in time. You can't change it, because it always is what it is. In B-theory, the future is no different than the past, you can't change that which has forever been coextant with the entirety of time itself. That is why it's called a block universe. If it were possible to view this "block" universe from outside, you'd see that everything in time, from the beginning to the end of time, would be in its location in time. Everything would be in its location in space, and everything would be in it's location in time.

The question then becomes, if B-theory is the reality, then why is it that we experience ourselves as moving through time.

[Tassman]

And as I keep repeating, if every moment in time, every event in every moment of time, can be seen from outside of time, then every moment in time exists whether we, from our inside of time perspective, experience it that way or not. If god, from his outside of time perspective, can see the point in time relative to the year 3025, then the year 3025, and all the events therein, already exists. It's illogical to argue that the future exists from one perpective but that it doesn't exist from another perspective, it can only be one or the other, the future either exists or it doesn't.
Perhaps an example will help. Lets say that you are clairvoyent and could see the future, and what you see is that in the year 2022, on a monday at precisley 12:01 pm. in the afternoon, you are crossing the street and a car barrels right into you, killing you. Now, being that you are clairvoyent, is there anything you can do to change the fact that "you will be" run over in 2022 on a monday at 12:01 pm. The answer is no, because in B-theory the year 2022 on a monday at 12:01 pm. is coextant with the year 2020 on a Saturday at 6:00 pm.
And that means that it's not that "you will" be run over, it means that "you are being" run over. B-theory says that your entire life span, every point in time from your birth to your death, exists in its designated locations in time. You can't change it, because it always is what it is. In B-theory, the future is no different than the past, you can't change that which has forever been coextant with the entirety of time itself. That is why it's called a block universe. If it were possible to view this "block" universe from outside, you'd see that everything in time, from the beginning to the end of time, would be in its location in time. Everything would be in its location in space, and everything would be in it's location in time.

The question then becomes, if B-theory is the reality, then why is it that we experience ourselves as moving through time.

The obvious answer is that the flow of time is an illusion, which is what you are implying. The past, present, and future are equally real. Time has no tense except as an illusory perception.

[Jim B.]

The obvious answer is that the flow of time is an illusion, which is what you are implying. The past, present, and future are equally real. Time has no tense except as an illusory perception.

That doesn't address the question.

[Jim B.]

And as I keep repeating, if every moment in time, every event in every moment of time, can be seen from outside of time, then every moment in time exists whether we, from our inside of time perspective, experience it that way or not. If god, from his outside of time perspective, can see the point in time relative to the year 3025, then the year 3025, and all the events therein, already exists. It's illogical to argue that the future exists from one perpective but that it doesn't exist from another perspective, it can only be one or the other, the future either exists or it doesn't.
Perhaps an example will help. Lets say that you are clairvoyent and could see the future, and what you see is that in the year 2022, on a monday at precisley 12:01 pm. in the afternoon, you are crossing the street and a car barrels right into you, killing you. Now, being that you are clairvoyent, is there anything you can do to change the fact that "you will be" run over in 2022 on a monday at 12:01 pm. The answer is no, because in B-theory the year 2022 on a monday at 12:01 pm. is coextant with the year 2020 on a Saturday at 6:00 pm.
And that means that it's not that "you will" be run over, it means that "you are being" run over. B-theory says that your entire life span, every point in time from your birth to your death, exists in its designated locations in time. You can't change it, because it always is what it is. In B-theory, the future is no different than the past, you can't change that which has forever been coextant with the entirety of time itself. That is why it's called a block universe. If it were possible to view this "block" universe from outside, you'd see that everything in time, from the beginning to the end of time, would be in its location in time. Everything would be in its location in space, and everything would be in it's location in time.

The question then becomes, if B-theory is the reality, then why is it that we experience ourselves as moving through time.

Yes, I think I understand the B-Theory. What I'm suggesting is another way of looking at it. I'm not saying it's right, only an alternative way of framing it. Imagine that the A-Theory is correct, and that God, nevertheless, is 'outside' of the A-Series. Most people would say that even from God's perspective, he would not see a future. The future would be a blank. But imagine that he's seeing the future as if it has already occurred. The fact that you can see what you did yesterday as if it were part of a "block universe" does not necessarily indicate that the "block universe theory" is correct. It's only perspectival in this instance. If God is the "Alpha and the Omega", then his 'outside' perspective would be one of seeing every event as if already having happened, regardless of whether A-Theory or B-Theory is the right one. If God sees every event as if in retrospect, although in reality in an eternal present, then every event is fixed regardless of the nature of time. Just as what was once the 'future' for me, June 6, is now 'fixed' for me, but that conundrum is only a matter of shifting perspective and not a matter of metaphysics and the nature of time. Even if the future is 'open' from one perspective, our limited, time-bound perspective of moving into an uncertain future, it can be closed and 'block' from another. If God can contain all perspectives, God can comprehend and resolve this apparent paradox.

[JimL]

Yes, I think I understand the B-Theory. What I'm suggesting is another way of looking at it. I'm not saying it's right, only an alternative way of framing it. Imagine that the A-Theory is correct, and that God, nevertheless, is 'outside' of the A-Series. Most people would say that even from God's perspective, he would not see a future. The future would be a blank. But imagine that he's seeing the future as if it has already occurred. The fact that you can see what you did yesterday as if it were part of a "block universe" does not necessarily indicate that the "block universe theory" is correct. It's only perspectival in this instance. If God is the "Alpha and the Omega", then his 'outside' perspective would be one of seeing every event as if already having happened, regardless of whether A-Theory or B-Theory is the right one. If God sees every event as if in retrospect, although in reality in an eternal present, then every event is fixed regardless of the nature of time. Just as what was once the 'future' for me, June 6, is now 'fixed' for me, but that conundrum is only a matter of shifting perspective and not a matter of metaphysics and the nature of time. Even if the future is 'open' from one perspective, our limited, time-bound perspective of moving into an uncertain future, it can be closed and 'block' from another. If God can contain all perspectives, God can comprehend and resolve this apparent paradox.

But if the A-theory is correct, the future events in time do not yet exist to be seen. What you seem to be suggesting is that the future is closed from an outside of time perspective, but open from an inside of time perspective. That's the logical contradiction that I think you, as well as Sparko, are trying to overcome. If you are suggesting that the future exists for god to see from his outside of time perspective, that your future exists for god to see because you have already lived it, then what are you doing here in the present? Even from an outside of time perspective, the only events in time that could be seen are those events that are actual realities.
I don't think it logical to say God can see the future "as if it already happened." as if it were already real. It can only be seen, if it actually did happen, if it actually is real. You could argue that god knows what will happen, but not what has happened before it actually has happened. But again, if god knows what will happen, then he obviously engineered it to happen that way,and if that be the case then, just like in B-theory, you can kiss free will goodby. Afaics, the only way free will is possible is if A-theory is true, and god does not know the future.

[Sparko]

That's not B-theory, Sparko. In B-theory the choices you end up making at t2 exist, they are just as real, as your consideration to make those choices at t1.[/B] Your consideration to have bacon for breakfast at t1, and your choice to make it at time t2, and your eating of it at t3, are coextent realities in B-theory. You don't move from t1 to t3, all points in time are coextant, the past as real as the future. Put it this way, in B-theory the only difference between 1800 and 2040 is the points in which events are located along the otherwise static time line. In B-theory, you are not moving into the future and making free willed choices as you go, you are already there, and always have been there for as long as the universe has existed. In the block universe all of time, and all events in time, have existed for as long as the universe itself has existed.

If it is all just "there" how did it get that way? What or who set everything up to appear to be a series of connected actions and choices that lead to a rational outcome? You don't understand B-theory at all, Jim.

Conscious free willed beings, of course.

We are talking about the B-theory which you insist doesn't include free will or choices, everything is just determined, right? What determines them?

[Sparko]

Yes, I think I understand the B-Theory. What I'm suggesting is another way of looking at it. I'm not saying it's right, only an alternative way of framing it. Imagine that the A-Theory is correct, and that God, nevertheless, is 'outside' of the A-Series. Most people would say that even from God's perspective, he would not see a future. The future would be a blank. But imagine that he's seeing the future as if it has already occurred. The fact that you can see what you did yesterday as if it were part of a "block universe" does not necessarily indicate that the "block universe theory" is correct. It's only perspectival in this instance. If God is the "Alpha and the Omega", then his 'outside' perspective would be one of seeing every event as if already having happened, regardless of whether A-Theory or B-Theory is the right one. If God sees every event as if in retrospect, although in reality in an eternal present, then every event is fixed regardless of the nature of time. Just as what was once the 'future' for me, June 6, is now 'fixed' for me, but that conundrum is only a matter of shifting perspective and not a matter of metaphysics and the nature of time. Even if the future is 'open' from one perspective, our limited, time-bound perspective of moving into an uncertain future, it can be closed and 'block' from another. If God can contain all perspectives, God can comprehend and resolve this apparent paradox.

Again, that would be the B-theory. If God can see the actual future, then it exists for him to see it in some manner. That is the B-theory. We can't see it because we are inside and don't have any way to perceive it. It would be like a two dimensional creature trying to imagine a 3-dimensional world.

[JimL]

If it is all just "there" how did it get that way? What or who set everything up to appear to be a series of connected actions and choices that lead to a rational outcome? You don't understand B-theory at all, Jim.

I'm not arguing that B-theory is real, I'm arguing what it entails. As to how it got that way, if that's the reality, ask Albert Einstein. Or ask BP who agrees with me that in B-theory it's all there, that the you in the future is coextant with the you in the present. But if you have a logical explanation as to how free will works within that concept, I love to hear it. So far you haven't come up with one.

We are talking about the B-theory which you insist doesn't include free will or choices, everything is just determined, right? What determines them?

Right, B-theory=determined. But the physics, even in A-theory entails determinism. If the big bang happened, that set of the atoms on their determined paths and we are those determined atoms. Perhaps the physics are missing something but whatever it is free will isn't in those 2 theories as they are understood.