Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras
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Forum Rules: Here
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
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B Theory Of Time...
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostOne way is if what is "fixed" is your free will action. Just like when you look into the past, your fixed actions in the past are due to your free will actions in the past.
Another way is if there are parallel universes that branch off for every decision. Then you would have infinite block universes that encompass all choices you could make.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostNot seeing it BP, that looks like a logical contradictiohn on its face.
Looking at the fixed past. Let's say you ate a burrito for lunch yesterday. Thus the block universe shows you eating a burrito yesterday. As you say, it can't be changed. Now. BUT let's say you chose to eat a taco instead at that time. Then from your viewpoint now, that is what you would remember you eating. It would be what is fixed in the block universe. You would be complaining that your choice was fixed and determined that you had to eat a taco. Yet if you did choose to eat a burrito, you would still be here complaining that you were determined to eat a burrito. Either way, it was your choice. Your "input" to the formula that BP was talking about. Your free will decision created the fixed past you remember today. Your free will is the input variable that BP is talking about.
While all decisions are "fixed" past, present and future, they are our own free will decisions that are fixed. If we chose (or will choose) differently, then that is what is fixed.
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Originally posted by Sparko View Postwell if memories are built by neurons and connections, then every new "frame" has new connections in the brain, as well as the old ones, so the brain remembers the past, but can't remember the future because those connections don't exist in the brain at that time frame.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostWhy don't those future connections exist since the future does exist now in B Theory? The 2026 me exists as we speak.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostAnd he has those connections and memories of his past up to 2026, IN 2026. You don't. You seem to think every moment has to be exactly the same. that is what would need to be in order for all moments of you to have the same memories.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by JimL View PostForever fixed and compatible with free will is a logical contradiction on its face.
You can't be the agent of an act if the act has never not existed. The Block Universe doesn't evolve, time doesn't flow, it's all there, forever fixed. So, how can anyone within a changeless, fixed, Block Universe, be responsible for changing anything that's always been fixed?
As I mentioned in my own thread on the B-Theory, the only thing that is changeless on the B-Theory is the universe as a whole, because that necessarily implies looking at all of Time, as well. Change requires comparing one state of a thing to another state of that thing, but the universe as a whole doesn't have multiple states on a Block Universe model.
If they are free willed agents, sure. But B-theory is as if every thing exists before we actually experience it. Like Einstein said: "I know that it isn't the fault of the ax murderer that he is an ax murderer, but I wouldn't want to sit at tea with him."
Originally posted by seer View PostBP, so there is an arrow of time? Again how is that possible if time is tenseless? And how would entropy be possible if time is tenseless? What is actually becoming more disordered?
First of all, the concept of entropy does not rely on the passage of time. A physicist can speak perfectly cogently about the entropy of a system at a single moment in time.
Secondly, entropy is certainly not "disorder." I can very easily think of a model with two states which both look quite orderly despite the fact that one state has a far higher entropy than the other.
Entropy is a measure of the statistical likelihood of a given state with regard to a large possible statespace. Even that is an oversimplified definition, unfortunately. However, there's no good way to really describe the notion accurately without appealing to mathematics with which most people are unfamiliar. Hence, science popularizers tend to throw up their hands and appeal to "disorder," making a good many of us cringe every time they do.
God chooses to do things like create, but I would not say He has freedom to not act according to his moral character. When one speaks of freedom we usually mean one has a genuine choice. I can choose to eat that extra piece cake or not. Both options are logically possible."[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
--Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostOne way is if what is "fixed" is your free will action. Just like when you look into the past, your fixed actions in the past are due to your free will actions in the past.
Another way is if there are parallel universes that branch off for every decision. Then you would have infinite block universes that encompass all choices you could make.
I think you guys are still confusing B-theory, a static, fixed, time dimension, with A-theory, in which time actually flows from past to future.
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Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View PostThis is one of the reasons I despise the popularization of the notion of entropy as "becoming more disordered." At best, "disorder" is a poor analogy. At worst, it is an outright misconception.
First of all, the concept of entropy does not rely on the passage of time. A physicist can speak perfectly cogently about the entropy of a system at a single moment in time.
Secondly, entropy is certainly not "disorder." I can very easily think of a model with two states which both look quite orderly despite the fact that one state has a far higher entropy than the other.
Entropy is a measure of the statistical likelihood of a given state with regard to a large possible statespace. Even that is an oversimplified definition, unfortunately. However, there's no good way to really describe the notion accurately without appealing to mathematics with which most people are unfamiliar. Hence, science popularizers tend to throw up their hands and appeal to "disorder," making a good many of us cringe every time they do.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by JimL View PostBut again, that is a logical contradiction. The logical fact is that only one of the two theoretical perspectives could be the reality. How coult the future be both closed from an outside perspective and open from an inside perspective?
The past would be closed from either perspective. But in B-theory, the future is the same as the past in that respect, it's not open to change. T2 would just be another point along the timeline, but not another time.
That's kind of the point, imagine that the entire history of the universe existed, from beginning to end. That's B-theory. It's all there and always has been. You're existence and actions along that timeline has always been there. How can you be said to be the chooser of that which has always been?
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Originally posted by seer View PostHow ever you define entropy I think we can agree that it includes change.
How can we have change if time is tenseless?
How does something go from state A to state B if time is static?
And how can a physicist speak of a moment of time when moments do not exist?"[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
--Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)
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Originally posted by seer View PostThat does not make sense in the B Theory since there is no flow of time - time is tenseless. There are no moments.
Or if you want to think of it as a film, what you perceive as "now", your consciousness, is where the light is shining through the frame as each frame passes by. You have already seen the past frames so you know what was in them, but you haven't seen the future ones yet, even though they exist.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostYes there are. Time exists as a continuum. Think of it as a line stretching back and forth. Each point along that line is a moment. But just like a film, each frame is not the same. It builds on the frame before. So your brain has all of the memories it has accumulated from past moments, but none of the future ones.
Or if you want to think of it as a film, what you perceive as "now", your consciousness, is where the light is shining through the frame as each frame passes by. You have already seen the past frames so you know what was in them, but you haven't seen the future ones yet, even though they exist.
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Originally posted by Jim B. View PostBut your analogy depends on the image of a strip of film passing in front of a light and one frame 'presently' being illuminated by consciousness.
The you who started reading this post thought he was in "now" and so does the you who is reading this word right now. Yet that Jim who started reading this post is now in the past. Same with the you of 5 minutes, or 5 years from now.
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