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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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B Theory Of Time...

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  • Originally posted by JimL View Post
    I wouldn't say that a god could not have forknowledge under A-theory, but if he did it would negate free will. If he knew the future then it would have to be that he engineered it to unwind that way. Like an elaborate set up of dominos, they will fall in the future the way they were set up to, determined beforehand to, fall. Free will couldn't exist within either theory of time if god has foreknowledge
    Yes, that's the claim. I've yet to see an actual argument to support it.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
      Yes, that's the claim. I've yet to see an actual argument to support it.
      If you have an alternative logical argument that can refute the above, I would honestly love to see it.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by JimL View Post
        If you have an alternative logical argument that can refute the above, I would honestly love to see it.
        I don't need an argument to reject something that is offered as a bare assertion.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
          I don't need an argument to reject something that is offered as a bare assertion.
          You will need to explain HOW God knows what you will do 10 years from now if you have free will and everything isn't predetermined.

          Under B theory, God could know because the future exists and he can see what you freely choose to do 10 years from now. Under A-theory, there is no way for him to know if you have free will. Prophesy would be impossible unless he made it happen. That's just common sense.

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          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            You will need to explain HOW God knows what you will do 10 years from now if you have free will and everything isn't predetermined.

            Under B theory, God could know because the future exists and he can see what you freely choose to do 10 years from now. Under A-theory, there is no way for him to know if you have free will. Prophesy would be impossible unless he made it happen. That's just common sense.
            The problem I have with this line of reasoning is that it seems to be almost perfectly comparable to the kind of argument atheists/skeptics put forward when they bring up Euthyphro's dilemma and claim a good God and evil cannot co-exist in the same reality. I do not need to explain HOW God can be good and still allow evil to exist in the world in order to be justified to reject the Euthyphro dilemma; in the same way I'm not obligated to explain how God can know the future and free will still be possible under A-theory. At least not as long as "It's just common sense" is the strongest argument that has been offered so far. My inability to explain the possibility of foreknowledge and free will co-existing under A-theory does not actually demonstrate that it is impossible.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              from our current point in time we say "was" -- "is" indicated he is somehow alive in 2020. He isn't. Neither in A or B time.

              If you could build a time machine and go back to 2019, you would see your friend alive and conscious.
              I'm not asking about our point of view - is he still alive in 2019 somewhere in the universe? Does the year 2019 still exist?
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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              • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                The problem I have with this line of reasoning is that it seems to be almost perfectly comparable to the kind of argument atheists/skeptics put forward when they bring up Euthyphro's dilemma and claim a good God and evil cannot co-exist in the same reality. I do not need to explain HOW God can be good and still allow evil to exist in the world in order to be justified to reject the Euthyphro dilemma; in the same way I'm not obligated to explain how God can know the future and free will still be possible under A-theory. At least not as long as "It's just common sense" is the strongest argument that has been offered so far. My inability to explain the possibility of foreknowledge and free will co-existing under A-theory does not actually demonstrate that it is impossible.
                Well if you can't even come up with a reasonable theory on how free will could exist under A-theory and God still be able to know the future that doesn't even exist, then I think my argument stands. You can't just throw your hands in the air and say "well just because I can't answer you doesn't mean it can't be true anyway!"

                By the way, I knew you would say that!


                Look, I think I am just about done here, I seem to be getting asked the same thing over and over and answering the same answer over in over in slightly different ways. You are under no obligation to believe in the B-theory (or A theory)

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                • Originally posted by seer View Post
                  I'm not asking about our point of view - is he still alive in 2019 somewhere in the universe? Does the year 2019 still exist?
                  Yes. Like I said, if you had a time machine, you could go to 2019 and it would be just as "real" as 2020 is to you right now.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    Well if you can't even come up with a reasonable theory on how free will could exist under A-theory and God still be able to know the future that doesn't even exist, then I think my argument stands. You can't just throw your hands in the air and say "well just because I can't answer you doesn't mean it can't be true anyway!"

                    By the way, I knew you would say that!

                    But I'm not actually seeing an argument. I'm seeing a string of assertions, but I'm not actually seeing an attempt to show that there is any logical interconnection between them.


                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    Look, I think I am just about done here, I seem to be getting asked the same thing over and over and answering the same answer over in over in slightly different ways. You are under no obligation to believe in the B-theory (or A theory)
                    That's fair.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      It isn't a spotlight on one part of your life. You feel that "spotlight" at every instant of your life. You felt it when you were making that post, didn't you? And you feel it now when you are reading this post. You feel it at every part of your life. It doesn't "disappear"
                      It doesn't disappear but it is a "Now." Why is there a "Now"? What in physics supports it?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        Yes. Like I said, if you had a time machine, you could go to 2019 and it would be just as "real" as 2020 is to you right now.
                        So 2019 still exists in the universe?
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Jim B. View Post
                          It doesn't disappear but it is a "Now." Why is there a "Now"? What in physics supports it?
                          Since every moment is "now" to you at that moment, I would say it is just the way your brain works and perceives the universe.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                            My point was simply that God not knowing the future under A-theory, wouldn't mean that He was not omniscient. The actual extent of God's knowledge in the actual world is a different thing from theoretical considerations of what would count as actual omniscient in different versions of reality. I'm also not sure if knowing the future is impossible under all versions of A-theory, or just some of them.
                            Augustine and Boethius both believed that God existed 'outside' of time, and that time itself unfolded freely and so conformed to A-Theory. God would therefore be eternally co-present with every event happening within the A-Series. So in a way, you could say that God is in a B-relation to time, but in another way, you could say that God transcends both A- and B-relations altogether. But the point is that God does not foreknow but eternally knows every event as it freely unfolds, and so his eternal knowledge is compatible with free will. That's one possible way of reconciling A-Theory, God's knowledge of what we 'will' do, and our free will.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              Since every moment is "now" to you at that moment, I would say it is just the way your brain works and perceives the universe.
                              But why is that the way my brain works? Is it just an anomaly? It's essential to my identity, my "being towards death" etc. If it's just a trick or anomaly, then so am I.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Jim B. View Post
                                Augustine and Boethius both believed that God existed 'outside' of time, and that time itself unfolded freely and so conformed to A-Theory. God would therefore be eternally co-present with every event happening within the A-Series. So in a way, you could say that God is in a B-relation to time, but in another way, you could say that God transcends both A- and B-relations altogether. But the point is that God does not foreknow but eternally knows every event as it freely unfolds, and so his eternal knowledge is compatible with free will. That's one possible way of reconciling A-Theory, God's knowledge of what we 'will' do, and our free will.
                                But that would be different from forknowledge. Knowing what we've done when we've done it is not the same thing as knowing what we will do prior to our doing it.

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