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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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B Theory Of Time...

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  • Originally posted by seer View Post
    That makes no sense - all the points on the ruler exist simultaneously. Tell me Sparko in B Theory is time tenseless and static?
    The ruler is a piece of matter in SPACE. Of course it all exists simultaneously. It is just an analogy. The ruler represents TIME, and you are looking at it from outside, seeing all of time simultaneously.

    For someone like God, outside of time, all of it exists as a whole, just like space does, but to us, we only experience the point where we are. To you, right now it is 2020. 1969 doesn't exist here. It exists in 1969. It is "back" for you.

    If space were two dimensional and like sheet of paper, time would be different layers of sheets, stacked upwards. To a 3-dimensional being looking from the outside, they would see the universe as a giant cube. Beginning of time at the bottom and end of time at the top. 2020 would be one sheet and 1969 would be a different sheet. To someone on the 2020 sheet, they would perceive the 1969 sheet as being in the past. You can't find 1969 on the 2020 sheet. You would have to travel back to the 1969 sheet.

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    • Originally posted by Jim B. View Post
      If God could foretell the future with absolute certainty, then that isn't A-Theory.
      No, God could still tell the future in A-theory, but only as a one who has engineered it to unwind in such a way that he would know. But that would also negate the possibility of free will.

      If it's A-Theory, the future doesn't exist.
      .
      True, so that leaves us 2 options, either god doesn't know the future and we have free will, or god does know the future due to his engineering of creation to unwind that way, and there is no free will.

      Prophecy could still be possible on A-Theory, I think, if God knows all past and present facts and is very good at projecting contingencies and probabilities into the future.
      Then again, god would need to know the future from the get go, prior to there being any past or present facts, which again brings it back to he knows because he engineered it to unwind the way he knows it will unwind.
      Or if God is 'outside' of time as Augustine thought and can timelessly know every A-series event as it happens.
      Knowing time as it happens is not unusual, that's knowing the present, not knowing the future.
      Last edited by JimL; 06-04-2020, 01:59 PM.

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      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        The ruler is a piece of matter in SPACE. Of course it all exists simultaneously. It is just an analogy. The ruler represents TIME, and you are looking at it from outside, seeing all of time simultaneously.
        Sparko, if from outside of time, you can see all of time and all events in time simultaneously, then all of time exists whether you are aware of that from the inside or not. If all of time exists, then all of time exists.
        For someone like God, outside of time, all of it exists as a whole, just like space does, but to us, we only experience the point where we are. To you, right now it is 2020. 1969 doesn't exist here. It exists in 1969. It is "back" for you.
        And again, if all of time exists from gods outside of time perspective, then it all exists period. The thing about B-theory is that our perpective from the inside is an illusion.
        If space were two dimensional and like sheet of paper, time would be different layers of sheets, stacked upwards. To a 3-dimensional being looking from the outside, they would see the universe as a giant cube. Beginning of time at the bottom and end of time at the top. 2020 would be one sheet and 1969 would be a different sheet. To someone on the 2020 sheet, they would perceive the 1969 sheet as being in the past. You can't find 1969 on the 2020 sheet. You would have to travel back to the 1969 sheet.
        And all the sheets that make up the cube would be just as real and unchanging as the other, and would each have always been real.

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        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          even if he is really good a "predicting" he could still be wrong. It means we can't trust God's prophesies. Or his prophets.

          God says he word will always come to pass. No exceptions.

          Deuteronomy 18:20-22
          But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.’ And if you say in your heart, ‘How may we know the word that the Lord has not spoken?’— when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him.
          That's more in line with Augustine's and Boethius' ideas. I think a dipolar God makes the most sense, that there's an aspect of God's nature that's beyond time that allows him to know the future, and an aspect that unfolds with time, allowing him to interject himself into history, answer prayers, etc.

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          • Originally posted by Jim B. View Post
            That's more in line with Augustine's and Boethius' ideas. I think a dipolar God makes the most sense, that there's an aspect of God's nature that's beyond time that allows him to know the future, and an aspect that unfolds with time, allowing him to interject himself into history, answer prayers, etc.
            You are ignoring the elephant in the room.
            • God says his knowledge is infallible.
            • If he tells a prophet what is going to happen it will happen.
            • If there is no future for God to know, and there is free will, then God can be wrong, because he is just guessing.
            • Which means he is not infallible,
            • which means his prophets could be wrong,
            • which means Deuteronomy 18 is God telling a lie.

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            • Originally posted by JimL View Post
              No, God could still tell the future in A-theory, but only as a one who has engineered it to unwind in such a way that he would know. But that would also negate the possibility of free will.
              Either a clockwork purely deterministic universe, or God is outside of time somehow, like I said, and knows what our future is. From his perspective, it is the eternal present.

              .
              True, so that leaves us 2 options, either god doesn't know the future and we have free will, or god does know the future due to his engineering of creation to unwind that way, and there is no free will.
              But it would be the 'future' only from our perspective, not from God's.


              Then again, god would need to know the future from the get go, prior to there being any past or present facts, which again brings it back to he knows because he engineered it to unwind the way he knows it will unwind.

              Knowing time as it happens is not unusual, that's knowing the present, not knowing the future.
              Yes, every moment would be the present for God. That's what Augustine and Boethius were saying. No past. No future. Those exist only for the creatures within the time series.

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              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                You are ignoring the elephant in the room.
                • God says his knowledge is infallible.
                • If he tells a prophet what is going to happen it will happen.
                • If there is no future for God to know, and there is free will, then God can be wrong, because he is just guessing.
                • Which means he is not infallible,
                • which means his prophets could be wrong,
                • which means Deuteronomy 18 is God telling a lie.
                I'm not saying God is 'guessing.' I'm saying that God knows what is our future because it is his eternal present even though that future is genuinely open for us. God eternally knows what we freely do.

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                • Originally posted by Jim B. View Post
                  I'm not saying God is 'guessing.' I'm saying that God knows what is our future because it is his eternal present even though that future is genuinely open for us. God eternally knows what we freely do.
                  That would be the B-theory of time.

                  Welcome aboard!

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                  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    That would be the B-theory of time.

                    Welcome aboard!
                    Not if God transcends time and temporal categories altogether.

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                    • Originally posted by Jim B. View Post
                      Not if God transcends time and temporal categories altogether.
                      Yes. That is how he knows the future. He is outside of time. Outside of the universe in fact. If you decide to eat noodles for supper tomorrow, he will know that fact because he can see that you are going to eat noodles, because the future already exists. If you choose to eat a hamburger tomorrow, he will know THAT instead because that is what you do in the future.

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                      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        Yes. That is how he knows the future. He is outside of time. Outside of the universe in fact. If you decide to eat noodles for supper tomorrow, he will know that fact because he can see that you are going to eat noodles, because the future already exists. If you choose to eat a hamburger tomorrow, he will know THAT instead because that is what you do in the future.
                        Right, but why would that be B-Theory? A and B-Theory are about the internal nature of the time series. God's outside that series. It would be G-Theory(?)

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                        • Originally posted by Jim B. View Post
                          Either a clockwork purely deterministic universe, or God is outside of time somehow, like I said, and knows what our future is. From his perspective, it is the eternal present.
                          If it is a clockwork, purely deterministic universe from gods perspective, then it doesn't matter what our perspective is, it will still be a clockwork purely deterministic universe. Our perspective of a not yet existing future from the inside would be an illusion, an illusion because we can't see the future which already exist that god can see. If god can see all of time from the outside perspective, then the future already exists whether we can see that from the inside or not. The future can not both exist and not exist depending upon ones perspective, it either exists or it doesn't exist. One perspective would be real, the other would be an illusion.


                          But it would be the 'future' only from our perspective, not from God's.
                          Then our perspective would be an illusion.



                          Yes, every moment would be the present for God. That's what Augustine and Boethius were saying. No past. No future. Those exist only for the creatures within the time series.
                          Again, if every moment is the present from any perspect, then every moment would be the present period. Not being aware of the existence of the future, like a god outside of time would be aware of it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist, it means we on the inside are not aware of that which already is. If the future didn't exist in actuality, then god couldn't see it, but if it does exist in actuality so that god can see it, then it exists in actuality period, whether we can see it or not.

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                          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            That would be the B-theory of time.

                            Welcome aboard!
                            Wrong. Not sure why you can't see the illogic in that argument. The future is either open or closed, it can't be both depending upon ones perspective. Perspective doesn't alter the reality, it just alters ones view of reality.

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                            • Originally posted by Jim B. View Post
                              Right, but why would that be B-Theory? A and B-Theory are about the internal nature of the time series. God's outside that series. It would be G-Theory(?)
                              Because in A-theory there is no future for God to see from "outside"

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                                Wrong. Not sure why you can't see the illogic in that argument. The future is either open or closed, it can't be both depending upon ones perspective. Perspective doesn't alter the reality, it just alters ones view of reality.
                                Wrong. This is where we always get into the same argument. You can only make a decision once, and can't go back and change it. Even in A-theory. So from a future viewpoint all of your past choices are fixed. That doesn't mean they weren't free will actions. It just means that once they are made, they cannot be changed. They are fixed. Same with the future. You may decide to eat steak tomorrow, or chicken. Either one would be your free will choice. Just because someone in the future knows that choice doesn't mean it isn't your free will that made it. You just don't know what it will be at this time. If you will choose steak, then someone in the future would know you chose steak. If you choose chicken they would know you chose chicken. If they could come back in time, they would know what your choice will be before you do. It doesn't mean your choice wasn't done freely, just that they know what it is.

                                This scenario is impossible (knowing the future) in A-theory. Therefore the only way God can know the future is to cause it. In B-theory, he can know your future choices, but they are still your choices. And they can only be made once. Whatever way you choose, that is what God will know, and what will be "fixed" in the block universe.

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