Trump claims to be taking Hydroxochloroquine

[oxmixmudd]

There are always things I find really odd about the views of my discussion "opponents" (for lack of a better term). Honestly, the idea that Bad Orange Man would be lying about something so simple as taking HCQ has to be one of the weirdest.

I don't think he's lying about it. I just think he's stupid enough to do it. The problem, of course, is that his followers are stupid enough to do it too, so a good many of them will likely be hurt by it as they don't have round the clock medical monitoring to make sure nothing is going awry. And if it turns out Trump doesn't get sick (which could - of course - just mean he's one of those that doesn't get sick), well that will be proof it works, and yet even more people will do it, and yet even more people will get hurt by it. Stupid is what Stupid does.

[JimL]

There are always things I find really odd about the views of my discussion "opponents" (for lack of a better term). Honestly, the idea that Bad Orange Man would be lying about something so simple as taking HCQ has to be one of the weirdest.

Trump has been trying to push the drug for months against the advice of professionals in the field, professionals in his own Administration, and allegedly fired the head of BARDA, Dr. bright, for speaking out against its use. He's still trying to push it, that's why he'd lie about using it himself. He told people "use it!" In other words, "don't listen to what you read or hear, stick with me."

[oxmixmudd]

How could anything get worse than what we actually see in the world right now?

The ironic thing is that the current political scenarios are worse than what conspiracy theories suggested.
1. People are mostly being confined to their homes
2. These people are living in fear for their lives if they go outside
3. There are places in California being threatened with having to be tested for coronavirus and having their children removed if the parents have a positive test
4. Most businesses have been forced to close.
5. Martial law: The governors are acting as dictators, and, even after many months, it sounds like most state legislatures are not able to make decisions on the laws
6. People are happy to obey ridiculous rules
7. People are being asked to snitch on their neighbors
8. The US government is spending trillions of dollars which will cause further collapse and will cause hyper-inflation
9. Police attack people who don't wear nonsensical face masks
10. Censorship has been applied across most large-scale public social sites. Only a few sources are said to be trustworthy: the mass media (sponsored by Pharmaceuticals) and the government
11. We are told to trust Gates, despite the deaths that have resulted from everything he sponsors.

No one I heard had expected such a sudden and total conformity to this global change. So reality is worse than the conspiracy investigators had discussed.

You forgot about Area 51 aliens and the faked moon landing ...

[shunyadragon]

I have a prescription for a drug that's usually used for a totally other purpose, but it has been found to work well with restless leg syndrome, from which I suffer. It's definitely "off-label".

Actually no, drugs that are found to apply to other conditions or illnesses are not "off label."

The drug in question, Hydroxochloroquine, has not been effective against the COVID 19, and has been found to cause heart problems and death in older, those with a history of heart illness and fragile patients.

[Cow Poke]

Actually no

Actually, yes - I know the drug I'm using and it's labeled use. But, hey, you're always right.

[shunyadragon]

Actually, yes - I know the drug I'm using and it's labeled use. But, hey, you're always right.

Your sarcasm has not contributed to the dialogue Drugs have many possible legitimate applications, I am not always right. What drug are you taking?

[NorrinRadd]

Actually no, drugs that are found to apply to other conditions or illnesses are not "off label."

What is your definition of "off label"?

The drug in question, Hydroxochloroquine, has not been effective against the COVID 19,

It has not been conclusively proven effective in randomized controlled trials. Many clinicians in the U.S., Europe, and elsewhere have found it effective enough to have been using it for months.

Prophylactic use as in the case of Bad Orange Man seems quite variable. I've seen some doctors on TV saying they don't know of anyone doing that, and others saying that everyone at their hospital that can get it is using it. One of the things that led to its use in the first place was the observation that people taking it for RA, lupus, or whatever, seemed to have a lower incidence of Wu-WHO Flu, i.e. that it potentially had prophylactic effects.

and has been found to cause heart problems and death in older, those with a history of heart illness and fragile patients.

True-ish. There is debate about how high the incidence is. It can be safely used for decades in RA patients. For Wu-WHO Flu, the recommendation has been to start it when the condition is mild to moderate, and to avoid it in cases of known heart issues, especially particular arrhythmias. The FDC guideline of only using it in hospital settings is likely to lead to showing HCQ to be ineffective, since it is (according to the clinicians who use it) less effective in advanced (i.e. requiring hospitalization) cases.

[Whateverman]

There are always things I find really odd about the views of my discussion "opponents" (for lack of a better term). Honestly, the idea that Bad Orange Man would be lying about something so simple as taking HCQ has to be one of the weirdest.

He lies casually and often, about things weighty and inconsequential.

Honestly, it was the way the words came out of his mouth that made it sound like a lie; an off-topic "oh, by the way..." that he really didn't need to say - except to make himself sound like he was correct in pushing the drug in the first place. The quote was out of place, but definitely in-character.

Hey, who knows, I might be wrong. He might have been telling the truth. The recently released memo suggests that he might be taking it after having talked with his physician. If so, then he didn't lie; it'd be a nice change.

[shunyadragon]

[QUOTE=NorrinRadd;739590]What is your definition of "off label"?

It has not been conclusively proven effective in randomized controlled trials. Many clinicians in the U.S., Europe, and elsewhere have found it effective enough to have been using it for months.

Source: https://www.statnews.com/2020/04/06/trump-hydroxychloroquine-fact-check/

There is currently no proven treatment for the coronavirus and Covid-19, the respiratory disease it causes, leading political figures to grasp for potentially effective stopgap measures as the global death toll nears 100,000. Hydroxychloroquine, used for decades as a medication to treat malaria and lupus, has generated by far the most excitement — within the Trump administration in particular — despite a lack of scientific evidence that it’s effective against Covid-19.

On Sunday, the debate escalated when Trump effectively prevented Anthony Fauci, the nation’s top infectious disease researcher, from answering a question about hydroxychloroquine during a White House press briefing. And over the weekend, Axios reported Fauci was berated by Trump’s economic adviser, Peter Navarro, for calling evidence supporting hydroxychloroquine’s use “anecdotal.”

© Copyright Original Source

Prophylactic use as in the case of Bad Orange Man seems quite variable. I've seen some doctors on TV saying they don't know of anyone doing that, and others saying that everyone at their hospital that can get it is using it. One of the things that led to its use in the first place was the observation that people taking it for RA, lupus, or whatever, seemed to have a lower incidence of Wu-WHO Flu, i.e. that it potentially had prophylactic effects.

Sounds like Voo Doo medicine.

True-ish. There is debate about how high the incidence is. It can be safely used for decades in RA patients. For Wu-WHO Flu, the recommendation has been to start it when the condition is mild to moderate, and to avoid it in cases of known heart issues, especially particular arrhythmias. The FDC guideline of only using it in hospital settings is likely to lead to showing HCQ to be ineffective, since it is (according to the clinicians who use it) less effective in advanced (i.e. requiring hospitalization) cases.

Dealing with unknowns here.

[mikewhitney]

You forgot about Area 51 aliens and the faked moon landing ...

Oh my. Facts are no longer facts, they are conspiracy theories. You are showing a programmed response instead of making a logical argument. You have been quarantined too long.

You have an amazing lack of perception of the very circumstances surrounding you. I suspect that such blindness is probably a severe survival mechnaism working you, a basic denial of reality.

I'm really baffled at your lack of understanding of economics and of so many other areas critical to this era.

If you wake up again, I would suggest that you do a little research on our current situation rather than just blurting out things that you don't know about.

I'm glad that God is ultimately in control. We really do seem to be in the Rev 20:7-10, if you even believe scriptures.

May God bless you.

[JimL]

How could anything get worse than what we actually see in the world right now?

The ironic thing is that the current political scenarios are worse than what conspiracy theories suggested.
1. People are mostly being confined to their homes
2. These people are living in fear for their lives if they go outside
3. There are places in California being threatened with having to be tested for coronavirus and having their children removed if the parents have a positive test
4. Most businesses have been forced to close.
5. Martial law: The governors are acting as dictators, and, even after many months, it sounds like most state legislatures are not able to make decisions on the laws
6. People are happy to obey ridiculous rules
7. People are being asked to snitch on their neighbors
8. The US government is spending trillions of dollars which will cause further collapse and will cause hyper-inflation
9. Police attack people who don't wear nonsensical face masks
10. Censorship has been applied across most large-scale public social sites. Only a few sources are said to be trustworthy: the mass media (sponsored by Pharmaceuticals) and the government
11. We are told to trust Gates, despite the deaths that have resulted from everything he sponsors.

No one I heard had expected such a sudden and total conformity to this global change. So reality is worse than the conspiracy investigators had discussed.

Are you an Alex Jones fan, Mike? Because he is the kind of person that push the conspiracy theories that you seem to subscribe to, like Bill Gates being the anti-christ. He and his ilk are making a whole lot of money off you while laughing at you for being so gullible. Nobody wants to admit to themselves that they've been duped by such a one, rather they want to prove to themselves that they haven't been, that they can't be, that they're too smart to be duped. Let me tell you something, it isn't about intelligence, anyone can be duped into believing false stories, and once they have been it gets harder and harder for them to question the validity of their beliefs, to question themselves. There is a whole lot of smart people out there falling for this stuff, a whole lot of dumb people too, but a whole lot of smart people as well. It's not so much a lack of intelligence that allows one to be duped, anyone can be duped under the right circumstances, it's more of a lack of its use that keeps you there. Don't be a dupe, Mike. Use your brain, and I really don't mean to be self righteous, but I know you have one.

[mikewhitney]

Are you an Alex Jones fan, Mike? Because he is the kind of person that push the conspiracy theories that you seem to subscribe to, like Bill Gates being the anti-christ. He and his ilk are making a whole lot of money off you while laughing at you for being so gullible. Nobody wants to admit to themselves that they've been duped by such a one, rather they want to prove to themselves that they haven't been, that they can't be, that they're too smart to be duped. Let me tell you something, it isn't about intelligence, anyone can be duped into believing false stories, and once they have been it gets harder and harder for them to question the validity of their beliefs, to question themselves. There is a whole lot of smart people out there falling for this stuff, a whole lot of dumb people too, but a whole lot of smart people as well. It's not so much a lack of intelligence that allows one to be duped, anyone can be duped under the right circumstances, it's more of a lack of its use that keeps you there. Don't be a dupe, Mike. Use your brain, and I really don't mean to be self righteous, but I know you have one.

I don't care for Alex Jones' stuff. I look at the facts. You are gullible enough to call everything conspiracy when you have apparently not investigated people like Gates. And I'm not sure why all of sudden you become so religious you talk about an anti-christ. You assume things without study of anything. I understand that intellectual laziness for people who blindly trust the media and government. I wish you had the intelligence to look into facts. I'm not saying that you should believe anything your read or anything I have talk about, unless you investigate it.

There are a lot of smart people who avoid researching information that is readily available. It sounds like you are one of those. So you don't have to feel ashamed. Just start verifying whether these things are true. I cannot believe the intellectual laziness of people who should be interested in facts.

For your "rational" view to be supported, you would have to say there is a conspiracy by Bill Gates, Fauci, WHO and a bunch of other organizations to put false content on their websites just to entice people like me to have false views in opposition to their philanthropy. Is this what you actually which to convey?

[DivineOb]

I don't care for Alex Jones' stuff. I look at the facts. You are gullible enough to call everything conspiracy when you have apparently not investigated people like Gates. And I'm not sure why all of sudden you become so religious you talk about an anti-christ. You assume things without study of anything. I understand that intellectual laziness for people who blindly trust the media and government. I wish you had the intelligence to look into facts. I'm not saying that you should believe anything your read or anything I have talk about, unless you investigate it.

There are a lot of smart people who avoid researching information that is readily available. It sounds like you are one of those. So you don't have to feel ashamed. Just start verifying whether these things are true. I cannot believe the intellectual laziness of people who should be interested in facts.

Mike,

I'm not saying that I have investigated the things you claim to believe in. I have investigated prior beliefs which bear very similar hallmarks and found them to be false despite having a compelling surface level appeal. What it has done is help instill in me a healthy skepticism for any claim which goes so heavily against mainstream thought. Does that mean that I will mistakenly reject a few outrageous beliefs which don't have much evidence but are nonetheless true? Yes. But it also insulates me from the vast majority of similar claims which aren't true. The vast majority of the time the evidence we have on hand (or which accumulates over time) readily points to what is real in the world.

People want to feel smart. Some are lazy and just don't have what it takes. For those people clinging to fringe beliefs which "prove all the experts wrong" gives them that feeling of power and expertise without actually being experts themselves. That's why there will always be a new breed of what I might call "conspiracy theories" waiting to ensnare the next group. And I'm not immune! I fell hook, line, and sinker for most of the anti-Hillary nonsense in 2016. So I speak from experience.

[mikewhitney]

Mike,

I'm not saying that I have investigated the things you claim to believe in. I have investigated prior beliefs which bear very similar hallmarks and found them to be false despite having a compelling surface level appeal. What it has done is help instill in me a healthy skepticism for any claim which goes so heavily against mainstream thought. Does that mean that I will mistakenly reject a few outrageous beliefs which don't have much evidence but are nonetheless true? Yes. But it also insulates me from the vast majority of similar claims which aren't true. The vast majority of the time the evidence we have on hand (or which accumulates over time) readily points to what is real in the world.

People want to feel smart. Some are lazy and just don't have what it takes. For those people clinging to fringe beliefs which "prove all the experts wrong" gives them that feeling of power and expertise without actually being experts themselves. That's why there will always be a new breed of what I might call "conspiracy theories" waiting to ensnare the next group. And I'm not immune! I fell hook, line, and sinker for most of the anti-Hillary nonsense in 2016. So I speak from experience.

Sometimes experience trains you badly. I don't know what your experience was concerning stuff about Hillary, nor whether you had any reasonable basis to change your perspective. But I listed the changes that are worse than any conspiracy theories, so I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. Do you want to just fall for anything your hear in the news now? That certainly is not a healthy approach. We have already had a thread about the lies the media has been doing recently.

Many things must be remembered. These times are not normal. Nothing being implemented has been done before. The economy of the world is dying. The richest people will be the ones to benefit since they can buy stuff at a bargain. The rest of us are just being stupid while hiding in fear in our homes. So, how do you want to evaluate this within the norms that you have become accustom to?

[oxmixmudd]

Oh my. Facts are no longer facts, they are conspiracy theories. You are showing a programmed response instead of making a logical argument. You have been quarantined too long.

You have an amazing lack of perception of the very circumstances surrounding you. I suspect that such blindness is probably a severe survival mechnaism working you, a basic denial of reality.

I'm really baffled at your lack of understanding of economics and of so many other areas critical to this era.

If you wake up again, I would suggest that you do a little research on our current situation rather than just blurting out things that you don't know about.

I'm glad that God is ultimately in control. We really do seem to be in the Rev 20:7-10, if you even believe scriptures.

May God bless you.

Sorry mike - I know some of those things are somewhat close to facts, but the entire thrust of your post is right in there with the conspiracy nutters. A good conspiracy always has some facts thrown in there to make it look real. There is always just enough plausibility to it to keep folks prone to being sucked into them 'believing'.