(Lighter thread): Who should re-open first, churches or AA meetings?

[Cow Poke]

Nobody BANNED our church meetings, Jim -- there were limitations advised, and we complied - to the letter. And Sekulow - our attorney - NEVER said it was acceptable to BAN church meetings.

As a matter of fact, he said quite the opposite....

The watchword here is neutrality: Is the government being neutral toward religion, or is the government instead imposing special burdens on religion and its adherents? For example, in a case filed just the week before Easter, a court held that a local city’s regulations banning church drive-in services was “beyond all question” a violation of the Free Exercise Clause.

And about the federal government...

Also, different – and stricter – rules apply to the federal government on this score. While state and local governments can neutrally apply safety measures to churches, the federal government must meet a higher standard under the Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA). If the federal action imposes a substantial burden on religious exercise – and closing churches certainly would do so – then the federal government must prove that it acts to further a compelling interest and is taking the least restrictive means to further that interest. (Some states also provide similar extra protection for religion under their own constitutions and statutes.)

In other words, there's no BAN on having Church services - they simply need to comply with mandated safety measures.

It's time for you to man up and admit you misspoke.

[JimL]

As a matter of fact, he said quite the opposite....

The watchword here is neutrality: Is the government being neutral toward religion, or is the government instead imposing special burdens on religion and its adherents? For example, in a case filed just the week before Easter, a court held that a local city’s regulations banning church drive-in services was “beyond all question” a violation of the Free Exercise Clause.

And about the federal government...

Also, different – and stricter – rules apply to the federal government on this score. While state and local governments can neutrally apply safety measures to churches, the federal government must meet a higher standard under the Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA). If the federal action imposes a substantial burden on religious exercise – and closing churches certainly would do so – then the federal government must prove that it acts to further a compelling interest and is taking the least restrictive means to further that interest. (Some states also provide similar extra protection for religion under their own constitutions and statutes.)

In other words, there's no BAN on having Church services - they simply need to comply with mandated safety measures.

It's time for you to man up and admit you misspoke.

No, it's time for you to man up, CP. Don't be moving the goal post. Nobody said anything about federal government, we said the government. The government can ban church for safety reason so long as churches aren't being unfairly targeted. If the purpose is to ban crowds due to a pandemic for instance, churches are no more exceptions to the ban than are sporting events restaurants etc. Neutrality is the watchword!

[Cow Poke]

No, it's time for you to man up, CP. Don't be moving the goal post. Nobody said anything about federal government, we said the government.

Who's "we", Jim? You're the one who made the idiot claim.

The government can ban church for safety reason so long as churches aren't being unfairly targeted. If the purpose is to ban crowds due to a pandemic for instance, churches are no more exceptions to the ban than are sporting events restaurants etc. Neutrality is the watchword!

Here's EXACTLY what you said that started all of this....

... it is perfectly legal to ban church services.

Regardless of all your goofy spin, that's simply flat not true, and I've demonstrated that clearly from the very cite you posted. And NO WONDER you don't post cites! They don't back up your goofy claims.

[shunyadragon]

We held church services for nearly two months with 10 people or less, as required by state's guidance, in addition to holding our support services. We were not in any way BANNED from having services.

Anecdotal as what churches plan to do and open to congregation. Holding very limited services would be withing guidelines. The reason churches as primary vector is singing and congregational prayer. If this is eliminated churches would be in the guidelines of most states.

I do not believe that the efforts are to ban church services. Outdoor and parking lot services would prevent by far most possible infections.

[Cow Poke]

Anecdotal as what churches plan to do and open to congregation. Holding very limited services would be withing guidelines.

And deemed reasonable by us.

The reason churches as primary vector is singing and congregational prayer. If this is eliminated churches would be in the guidelines of most states.

Laughing... yeah, church without singing and prayer.... that's a riot. If there is proper social distancing, singing and prayer are no problem at all.

I do not believe that the efforts are to ban church services.

Of course not!

Outdoor and parking lot services would prevent by far most possible infections.

And Jim's articled showed that those have been ATTEMPTED to be banned, but that was obviously an abuse of power. If a church's facilities allows for proper distancing and follows the guidelines set out, then it's no more hazardous than going to Walmart or Krogers or Home Depot.

[JimL]

Who's "we", Jim? You're the one who made the idiot claim.

Yep, I don't see anything about federal government there which was your, shall we say, mistaken assertion.

Here's EXACTLY what you said that started all of this....

Yep, that's what I said, and that is true, it is perfectly legal to ban in church services even if you refused to recognize it.

Regardless of all your goofy spin, that's simply flat not true, and I've demonstrated that clearly from the very cite you posted. And NO WONDER you don't post cites! They don't back up your goofy claims.

The omly goofy spin is coming from you, CP. It is perfectly legal to ban church services for public safety reasons so long as the churches are not unfairly targeted, and the ban is neutral.

[Cow Poke]

Yep, that's what I said, and that is true, it is perfectly legal to ban in church services even if you refused to recognize it....

Wow, talk about moving the goal posts, and outright LYING!!!! That's not what you said and you know it.

HERE is what you said....

...it is perfectly legal to ban church services....

It's dishonest for you to now claim that you said in church services.

You have sunk to a new low. And they aren't BANNED, Jim -- they are limited in scope.

[JimL]

Wow, talk about moving the goal posts, and outright LYING!!!! That's not what you said and you know it.

HERE is what you said....



It's dishonest for you to now claim that you said in church services.

You have sunk to a new low. And they aren't BANNED, Jim -- they are limited in scope.

No, it's not dishonest of you, CP, it's dishonest of you to be playing semantical games. You know quite well we're talking about closing churches, banning crowds. And I never said they are banned, I said they can be banned by law. Again you're just playing semantical games.

[Cow Poke]

No, it's not dishonest of me, CP...

It is, and I'm ashamed of you. I think this is about as low as I've seen you go in avoiding manning up.

[JimL]

It is, and I'm ashamed of you. I think this is about as low as I've seen you go in avoiding manning up.

You're not fooling anyone, CP. except perhaps yourself!

[Cow Poke]

You're not fooling anyone, CP. except perhaps yourself!

It's right there in black and white what you said, then you claimed you said something else. It's there for everybody to see.

[JimL]

It's right there in black and white what you said, then you claimed you said something else. It's there for everybody to see.

Okay CP, whatever you say. Relax.

[Cow Poke]

Okay CP, whatever you say. Relax.

I'm relaxed, you're dishonest.

[JimL]

I'm relaxed, you're dishonest.

Whatever you want to tell yourself, CP.

[Cow Poke]

Whatever you want to tell yourself, CP.

Goodnight, fibber.