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The reason people reject the resurrection

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  • #61
    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    That still does not determine the year as specifically as you claim.
    Use this calendar tool: https://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/calendar/
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by 37818 View Post
      No help there is still a range of possible years.
      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

      go with the flow the river knows . . .

      Frank

      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
        No help there is still a range of possible years.
        Luke 3:1, ". . . Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, . . ."
        His first year is known to be 14AD. There is no year zero in countiing the years. So the fifteenth year gives us a starting year of 28AD for Jesus' ministry.

        John records three Passovers in Jesus' ministry. Making the crucifixion 30AD. According to 30AD Mark 14:12-16 would be on a Wednesday. Being the day before the crucifixion
        Last edited by 37818; 06-06-2020, 04:39 PM.
        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
          Fair enough, and groups of people claimed to see Christ risen, and group hallucinations are unlikely.
          The earliest account of the resurrection is from Paul [I Corinthians 15:1-15] Given that he was establishing a new cult, it cannot be entirely ruled out that it was nothing but his imagination. Clearly from Paul's authentic letters he saw the crucifixion and resurrection in soteriological terms. We therefore cannot rule out the possibility that this was part of his own theological invention.
          "It ain't necessarily so
          The things that you're liable
          To read in the Bible
          It ain't necessarily so
          ."

          Sportin' Life
          Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
            The earliest account of the resurrection is from Paul [I Corinthians 15:1-15] Given that he was establishing a new cult, it cannot be entirely ruled out that it was nothing but his imagination. Clearly from Paul's authentic letters he saw the crucifixion and resurrection in soteriological terms. We therefore cannot rule out the possibility that this was part of his own theological invention.
            Based on the 4 gospel accounts there is a historical date for the crucifixion. Luke 3:1, Mark 14:12-16, And three Passovers in John's account.
            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
              Based on the 4 gospel accounts there is a historical date for the crucifixion. Luke 3:1, Mark 14:12-16, And three Passovers in John's account.
              Not overly reliable sources for historical accuracy.
              "It ain't necessarily so
              The things that you're liable
              To read in the Bible
              It ain't necessarily so
              ."

              Sportin' Life
              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                The earliest account of the resurrection is from Paul [I Corinthians 15:1-15] Given that he was establishing a new cult, it cannot be entirely ruled out that it was nothing but his imagination. Clearly from Paul's authentic letters he saw the crucifixion and resurrection in soteriological terms. We therefore cannot rule out the possibility that this was part of his own theological invention.
                1 Corinthians 15: 3 For I passed on to you as most important what I also received:

                that Christ died for our sins
                according to the Scriptures,
                4 that He was buried,
                that He was raised on the third day
                according to the Scriptures,
                5 and that He appeared to Cephas,
                then to the Twelve.
                6 Then He appeared to over 500 brothers at one time;
                most of them are still alive,
                but some have fallen asleep.
                7 Then He appeared to James,
                then to all the apostles.

                This is a creed passed down to Apostle Paul. It did not originate with him.

                1. Paul's words "delivered" and "received" are technical terms for passing on tradition. So, what Paul is saying is that this materials was not his own, but received from another source.

                2. A number of the words are non-Pauline which indicates another source. They are: "for our sins," "according to the scriptures," "he has been raised," the "third day," "he was seen," and "the twelve."

                3. The creed is organized in a stylized, parallel form, thereby indicating an oral and confessional nature.

                4. There are indications that there may be a Semitic source, such as the use of the Aramaic "Cephas" for Peter, which would point to an earlier source before Paul's Greek translation.

                5. Other indications of ancient Hebrew narration include the triple usage of "and that" along with the two references to the Scripture being fulfilled.

                Some date this creed from 2 to 5 years after Jesus' crucifixion.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                  Not overly reliable sources for historical accuracy.
                  So you believe. That belief does not change the fact the New Testament account actually identifies an actual date in history.
                  . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                  . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                  Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
                    1 Corinthians 15: 3 For I passed on to you as most important what I also received:

                    that Christ died for our sins
                    according to the Scriptures,
                    4 that He was buried,
                    that He was raised on the third day
                    according to the Scriptures,
                    5 and that He appeared to Cephas,
                    then to the Twelve.
                    6 Then He appeared to over 500 brothers at one time;
                    most of them are still alive,
                    but some have fallen asleep.
                    7 Then He appeared to James,
                    then to all the apostles.

                    This is a creed passed down to Apostle Paul. It did not originate with him.
                    How do you know? Where are the accounts from those other 500+ individuals?

                    Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
                    Some date this creed from 2 to 5 years after Jesus' crucifixion.
                    On what evidence?
                    "It ain't necessarily so
                    The things that you're liable
                    To read in the Bible
                    It ain't necessarily so
                    ."

                    Sportin' Life
                    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                      So you believe. That belief does not change the fact the New Testament account actually identifies an actual date in history.
                      What actual date would this be?
                      "It ain't necessarily so
                      The things that you're liable
                      To read in the Bible
                      It ain't necessarily so
                      ."

                      Sportin' Life
                      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                        How do you know? Where are the accounts from those other 500+ individuals?
                        Well, they're quoted as eyewitnesses, so anyone interested at that time could have checked to verify Paul's claim.

                        On what evidence?
                        See what Christian3 said, evidence that this is a creed passed down to Paul, and if Paul's letter is early, then the creed must be earlier still.

                        Blessings,
                        Lee
                        "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                          Well, they're quoted as eyewitnesses, so anyone interested at that time could have checked to verify Paul's claim.
                          The letter in which that comment occurs is to a small group of proselytes in Corinth. I do not imagine that any of them were going to engage in some "investigative journalism" and travel back to Jerusalem [about 1300 km] to interview those other "eye-witnesses" that Paul mentions and obtain their account of the event.


                          Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                          See what Christian3 said, evidence that this is a creed passed down to Paul, and if Paul's letter is early, then the creed must be earlier still.
                          The only evidence that we have of this creed being "passed down" is what Paul tells us in that letter.

                          Nothing else.
                          "It ain't necessarily so
                          The things that you're liable
                          To read in the Bible
                          It ain't necessarily so
                          ."

                          Sportin' Life
                          Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                            The only evidence that we have of this creed being "passed down" is what Paul tells us in that letter.

                            Nothing else.
                            Paul having the creed in 1 Cor 15 passed on to him via fellow Christians is such a trivial and non-controversial detail that unless you have strong arguments to the contrary there is absolutely no reason to reject Paul's statement on the issue. You might dispute the content of the creed being passed on to him, but objecting to Paul's statement about how this tradition was handed down to him on the basis that we only have his word for it borders on extreme hyperskepticism.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                              Paul having the creed in 1 Cor 15 passed on to him via fellow Christians is such a trivial and non-controversial detail that unless you have strong arguments to the contrary there is absolutely no reason to reject Paul's statement on the issue. You might dispute the content of the creed being passed on to him, but objecting to Paul's statement about how this tradition was handed down to him on the basis that we only have his word for it borders on extreme hyperskepticism.
                              It is hardly trivial given that the resurrection and a belief in the resurrection is one of the main tenets of Christianity.
                              "It ain't necessarily so
                              The things that you're liable
                              To read in the Bible
                              It ain't necessarily so
                              ."

                              Sportin' Life
                              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                                It is hardly trivial given that the resurrection and a belief in the resurrection is one of the main tenets of Christianity.
                                The simple matter of a particular tradition being passed on to Paul is a trivial matter, regardless of what the content is. The most probable explanation, requiring the least mental acrobatics, as to why Paul would claim that the creed in 1 Cor 15 was passed on to him by other Christians is that the creed was actually passed on to him by other Christians. The idea that Paul would lie about this simple fact is far more improbable than the alternative.

                                Comment

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