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Thread: The reason people reject the resurrection

  1. #11
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    One fact that needs to be acknowledged on both sides of the supernatural supposition. The New Testament documents are the sole evidence of the events claimed. It is attributed to Jesus to have argued, in John 7:17, ". . . If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. . . ." The writer John explained, John 20:31, ". . . But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. . . ." And in his letter, 1 John 5:13, ". . . These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. . . ." Indeed, if one by believing finds one's self actually knowing God, John 17:3. That is a supernatural event in and of itself, Romans 1:16.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  2. #12
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Well, the claim that Jesus rose from the dead is early (see 1 Cor. 15:3-8). And all the early Jewish leaders would have had to do to refute this claim was to produce the body!
    That doesn't really mean anything. The claim was made by Paul to a relatively small group of followers. fThe authorities probably didn't much care at the time or even know if the body was buried somewhere in a particular tomb or destroyed. The idea that christianity was a big deal to them at the time and that the body was buried in a specific tomb somewhere is all based on christian story's ( the NT) written decades later.

    But he mentions the resurrection, again and again. And it was said he appeared to the disciples, to Peter, to James, and to more than 500 (1 Cor. 15:3-8 again)
    .
    It was said by Paul of course, Paul was basically the founder of christianity, that's what he obviously wanted his followers to believe. Like Jim Jones, Paul had an agenda.

    Which doesn't prove that what they believe is true, but it does show what they believe to be true.
    Sure, but it shows that people can be very gullible, whether it be Islamic martyrs or christian.

  3. #13
    Professor KingsGambit's Avatar
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    I think saying that "the one reason" is a big oversimplification, given that Muslims reject the resurrection but certainly don't reject the supernatural. What they do reject is the crucifixion of Christ.
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

  4. #14
    tWebber Starlight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    group hallucinations, however implausible.
    In the sorts of spirit-vision quests common among primitive cultures, those seeking spiritual insight tend to fast, mediate into a dream-like / trance state, sometimes ingest hallucinations, and then be guided through their quest by others who would help them (before, during, or after it) interpret what they were seeing. The human mind in these trance/hallucinogenic states is very suggestible, and the 'content' of the visions often very unclear thus often requiring suggestions about what it was they were seeing to help the viewer understand afterwards what it was they really saw.

    Paul's writings indicate that spiritual visions were common among the early Christians when he talks about their practices (e.g. 1 Cor 14:26 "When you come together, each of you brings... a revelation, or an interpretation"). And he has a number of visions himself - including 'seeing' the resurrected Jesus. And we have the Book of Revelation which is entirely visions. And we know that by the 2nd century those branches of Christianity that were placing more emphasis on these ongoing spirit-visions were forking off into what would be called "Gnosticism".

    Because of the vagueness of the content of these kinds of visions, their interpretation is often communal rather than individual. So the group will come to an agreement about what the vision was/meant. Of course, this interpretation will then influence the next person in the group who has a vision, as their mind in that suggestible state will be influenced by what they expect to see.

    So, it is not at all in the least implausible, that a large number of Jesus followers did vision quests expecting to 'see' the resurrected Jesus in the spirit world, and as they talked over their visions afterwards they came to the consensus that that was indeed what they had seen.

    It's worth noting that these claims were not particularly widely believed outside the group of Jesus' followers. Josephus's detailed account of the factions in Jerusalem leading up to the war in 70AD indicates barely any Christians present. The argument that we, 2000 years later, ought to believe these guys Totally Saw the resurrected Jesus because of a change in their behavior, is difficult to take seriously given the vast majority of their contemporaries weren't convinced.

  5. #15
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    So which alternative do you adopt? I would maintain with Wallace that no alternative explanation fits the facts better than the resurrection of Jesus, once the possibility of the supernatural is acknowledged.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    For myself and millions of others, neither. Wallace is a highly biased source proposing an extremely circular argument. The evidence presented by Wallace is only believed by those that are already Christians that believe it.


    Also Muslims and Jews believe in the supernatural and do not believe in the physical Resurrection of Jesus, and they do not buy Wallaces arguments.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 05-24-2020 at 04:13 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Also Muslims and Jews believe in the supernatural and do not believe in the physical Resurrection of Jesus/
    The main reason is they would have to go from being Muslim or Jew to Christian. The reason they do not know is their ignorance of the correct understanding of the good news of unmerited favor only offered through the Christian faith I dare say you do not understand why it must be true.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  7. #17
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    The main reason is they would have to go from being Muslim or Jew to Christian. The reason they do not know is their ignorance of the correct understanding of the good news of unmerited favor only offered through the Christian faith I dare say you do not understand why it must be true.
    I am responding the erroneous assertion in circular reasoning of the thread proposal that those that believed in the 'supernatural' the evidence is conclusive that based on the claim of evidence' they would believe. You are confirming this that if they converted to Christianity they would believe. As Jews and Musims, and other religions as well that believe in the supernatural, the evidence claimed is not sufficient for a reason to believe in a physical Resurrection.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  8. Amen Whateverman amen'd this post.
  9. #18
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    I am responding the erroneous assertion in circular reasoning of the thread proposal that those that believed in the 'supernatural' the evidence is conclusive that based on the claim of evidence' they would believe. You are confirming this that if they converted to Christianity they would believe. As Jews and Musims, and other religions as well that believe in the supernatural, the evidence claimed is not sufficient for a reason to believe in a physical Resurrection.
    The suppostion that the evidence is not sufficient does not make it so. There is historically an actual date for the New Testament events. Islam is contingent on Christianity. Christianity is contingent on Judaism. And based on 70AD distruction of the Jewish temple, if Christianity is not true, an argument can be made Judaism is not true.
    Last edited by 37818; 05-25-2020 at 10:35 AM.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  10. #19
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    The suppostion that the evidence is not sufficient does not make it so.
    As per the topic of the thread it is only sufficient evidence for those that believe it is whether is so nor not so.

    There is historically an actual date for the New Testament events.
    No there is not.

    Islam is contingent on Christianity. Christianity is contingent on Judaism. And based on 70AD distruction of the Jewish temple,
    Judaism is not contingent of Christianity nor the belief in the physical resurrection of Jesus Christ. Other religions are not contingent on the belief of the physical resurrection of Jesus Christ.Not contingent on


    if Christianity is not true, an argument can be made Judaism is not true.
    An easy argument can be made that all Theistic religions are not true.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  11. #20
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    I notice all of the posts complaining about the facts, are nothing but conjecture with no evidence at all. strange.

  12. Amen Chrawnus, lee_merrill, Christianbookworm amen'd this post.

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