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Thread: The reason people reject the resurrection

  1. #21
    tWebber Chrawnus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    As per the topic of the thread it is only sufficient evidence for those that believe it is . . .
    What a stellar discovery. Evidence is only sufficient for those that are persuaded by it? What other gems of insight do you have to share with us?

    People die when they are killed?

    The archer class is really made up of archers?

    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    An easy argument can be made that all Theistic religions are not true.
    Well, yes, obviously not all theistic religions can be true at the same time, since many of them are exclusionary in nature.

    And if you're saying that an easy argument can be made that any theistic religion is not true, then I think it's more accurate to say that an easily dismissed argument can be made that any theistic religion is not true.
    Last edited by Chrawnus; 05-26-2020 at 08:30 AM.

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  3. #22
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    There is historically an actual date for the New Testament events.
    No there is not.
    So am I to understand there is no such thing as the Jewish obervance of the Passover and unleavened bread? Mark 14:12, Exodus 12:18. A Jewish Calendar, https://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/calendar/
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  4. #23
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    I notice all of the posts complaining about the facts, are nothing but conjecture with no evidence at all. strange.
    Actually - I thought BP's response was clear and based on facts. It appears that most of the claims made about the resurrection are themselves "conjecture," a discussion I was having with Seer for a while, until he "abandoned ship."
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

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  6. #24
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Actually - I thought BP's response was clear and based on facts. It appears that most of the claims made about the resurrection are themselves "conjecture," a discussion I was having with Seer for a while, until he "abandoned ship."
    No, they are based on people actually witnessing the events, which is evidence. You can claim you don't believe the evidence, but it is there. Merely conjecturing that they might have done this, or might have done that, is just guessing without any evidence at all.

  7. #25
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    No, they are based on people actually witnessing the events, which is evidence.
    Again - this is conjecture. What you have in the NT is a report ABOUT people witnessing the events, which is not evidence from the actual witnesses. We do not know that the authors are themselves witnesses because, in many cases, we do not know who the authors actually are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    You can claim you don't believe the evidence, but it is there.
    Actually, I have not said this. As with my discussion with Seer, what I have actually said is that the historical claims made about Jesus of Nazareth do not have adequate support to sustain the claim "these things happened." That is specific to the miracles, the quoted words of Jesus, and the details of daily activity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    Merely conjecturing that they might have done this, or might have done that, is just guessing without any evidence at all.
    That is pretty much my point: anyone who claims "I know what happened" cannot support that claim, whether they are believing the NT claims to be true or believing them to be false. At best, we end up with "we don't know." What we have in the NT is a presumably accurate reflection of what the community that arose after Jesus died believed at the time of the writing of the texts. Since the earliest dates to at least 20 years after Jesus' death, and the latest to as much as 70 years after, we are seeing the beliefs of a community that has had time to consider, reflect, develop a philosophy and theology, and apparently admitted many new members who would, in turn, very likely impact the beliefs of the group.
    Last edited by carpedm9587; 05-26-2020 at 01:00 PM.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  8. #26
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    No, they are based on people actually witnessing the events, which is evidence. You can claim you don't believe the evidence, but it is there. Merely conjecturing that they might have done this, or might have done that, is just guessing without any evidence at all.
    Not really. It's based on someone decades later alleging that some people at the time acually witnessed the event.

  9. #27
    tWebber Chrawnus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    Not really. It's based on someone decades later alleging that some people at the time acually witnessed the event.
    decades of transmission.jpg

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  11. #28
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Again - this is conjecture. What you have in the NT is a report ABOUT people witnessing the events, which is not evidence from the actual witnesses. We do not know that the authors are themselves witnesses because, in many cases, we do not know who the authors actually are.
    if you don't believe that it is eye witness testimony (or gathered by someone who interviewed eye witnesses in the case of Luke) then that is your prerogative, but if you want to claim that, you would need actual evidence to the contrary. Not just dismissing it.


    Actually, I have not said this. As with my discussion with Seer, what I have actually said is that the historical claims made about Jesus of Nazareth do not have adequate support to sustain the claim "these things happened." That is specific to the miracles, the quoted words of Jesus, and the details of daily activity.
    The "you" in my comment was a generic "you" applicable to those who have done so in this thread.


    That is pretty much my point: anyone who claims "I know what happened" cannot support that claim, whether they are believing the NT claims to be true or believing them to be false. At best, we end up with "we don't know." What we have in the NT is a presumably accurate reflection of what the community that arose after Jesus died believed at the time of the writing of the texts. Since the earliest dates to at least 20 years after Jesus' death, and the latest to as much as 70 years after, we are seeing the beliefs of a community that has had time to consider, reflect, develop a philosophy and theology, and apparently admitted many new members who would, in turn, very likely impact the beliefs of the group.
    The people who wrote the gospels can indeed claim to "know what happened" - they were there. Again, you can personally dismiss their writings, but if you are just replacing it with mere conjecture like "maybe they were on drugs" or "maybe they couldn't find the right grave" or similar, then you are just using conjecture without evidence to dismiss eye-witness testimony. Your conjecture holds less water than the writing do. Again "generic you"

  12. #29
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    Not really. It's based on someone decades later alleging that some people at the time acually witnessed the event.
    That is a great example of the "conjecture" I was referring to. Thank you Jim. You never disappoint.

  13. #30
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    That is a great example of the "conjecture" I was referring to. Thank you Jim. You never disappoint.
    Conjecture Sparko, is what we are all doing. We just disagree as to our conclusions.

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