Announcement

Collapse

Civics 101 Guidelines

Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!

Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less

Time For Martial Law...

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Charles View Post
    So, you still have not understood it, since you believe you can ask such a simple yes or no question. In parts of his text you would get that impression in others it seems his position was a bit different. Why is that so hard to grasp?

    And your question is even beside the point. You made the claim that when he refers to God it is the God of the Bible. As pointed out that is not necessarily the case. So I see why you would like to ask a simplified question which I have already given you the knowledge to know is a simplification.
    Charles: According to Locke were we created by God, receive our moral reason from God, and are the property of God - yes or no? It all goes back to God Charles...

    And are you denying that Locke was a Christian: https://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/l...28-06_head_001

    And since he quotes the Bible which other god is he speaking of? Did he have more than one god in mind?
    Last edited by seer; 06-05-2020, 12:36 PM.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • If liberals are worried about Trump invoking martial law, then maybe they shouldn't go around burning our cities?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        If liberals are worried about Trump invoking martial law, then maybe they shouldn't go around burning our cities?
        I know this is TOTALLY unorthodox, but in our area, we've had multiple protests, in each one of which, the protest organizers coordinated with the local ministerium and POLICE.

        We kinda kid that the only injury was when a big black protester hugged a police officer and squeezed him too tight. The officer is expected to make a full recovery.
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          I know this is TOTALLY unorthodox, but in our area, we've had multiple protests, in each one of which, the protest organizers coordinated with the local ministerium and POLICE.

          We kinda kid that the only injury was when a big black protester hugged a police officer and squeezed him too tight. The officer is expected to make a full recovery.
          We had our first one the other night. It was peaceful, except one guy tried to rip up an American flag, the other protesters stopped him. Cool...
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • Originally posted by seer View Post
            Charles: According to Locke were we created by God, receive our moral reason from God, and are the property of God - yes or no? It all goes back to God Charles...

            And are you denying that Locke was a Christian: https://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/l...28-06_head_001

            And since he quotes the Bible which other god is he speaking of? Did he have more than one god in mind?
            I have explained it over and over to you, seer, but you seemingly refuse to understand it. Some aspects of God's nature could, according to Locke, be know by reason. They applied to everyone. Some were known through devine revelation. According to Locke this is an area where freedom exists anf should exist due to un certainties and need for personal convictions. You claimed it was based on the God of the Bible. That is simplified at best and actually it is such a stretch that it's wrong. I have already pointed out the layers in Locke's thinking about devine and natural rights, why his use of the Bible does not at all make this distinction irrelevant. Go back and read, it is all there, even in my very first answer to you. But it seems you prefer the simplification.
            "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by seer View Post
              According to Locke were we created by God, receive our moral reason from God, and are the property of God
              Regardless of whether Locke thought that, that view isn't remotely relevant politically or philosophically when it comes to human politics, government, and rights. It doesn't provide any sort of remotely useful or interesting starting point for any discussion about the foundation of those things.
              "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
              "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
              "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                Regardless of whether Locke thought that, that view isn't remotely relevant politically or philosophically when it comes to human politics, government, and rights. It doesn't provide any sort of remotely useful or interesting starting point for any discussion about the foundation of those things.
                Well some people, like our Founders, believe that whether human rights were unalienable or not was an important question. And whether one can make a rational argument for said unalienable rights. Starting with God you can make a logical connection, without God it is doubtful. And Star, I don't think anyone really cares what you consider an interesting starting point or not.
                Last edited by seer; 06-06-2020, 05:56 AM.
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Charles View Post
                  I have explained it over and over to you, seer, but you seemingly refuse to understand it. Some aspects of God's nature could, according to Locke, be know by reason. They applied to everyone. Some were known through devine revelation. According to Locke this is an area where freedom exists anf should exist due to un certainties and need for personal convictions. You claimed it was based on the God of the Bible. That is simplified at best and actually it is such a stretch that it's wrong. I have already pointed out the layers in Locke's thinking about devine and natural rights, why his use of the Bible does not at all make this distinction irrelevant. Go back and read, it is all there, even in my very first answer to you. But it seems you prefer the simplification.
                  Again Charles, was Locke a Christian or not? And if he didn't have the God of the bible in mind which god did he have in mind? Be specific please.
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by seer View Post
                    Again Charles, was Locke a Christian or not?
                    So, you still don't understand it. This is not about what Locke personally believed with regard to devine revelation. Remember the basic distinction, seer?

                    Like I pointed out: "Some aspects of God's nature could, according to Locke, be know by reason. They applied to everyone. Some were known through devine revelation. According to Locke this is an area where freedom exists anf should exist due to un certainties and need for personal convictions. You claimed it was based on the God of the Bible. That is simplified at best and actually it is such a stretch that it's wrong. I have already pointed out the layers in Locke's thinking about devine and natural rights, why his use of the Bible does not at all make this distinction irrelevant. Go back and read, it is all there, even in my very first answer to you. But it seems you prefer the simplification.

                    Originally posted by seer View Post
                    And if he didn't have the God of the bible in mind which god did he have in mind? Be specific please.
                    Like I already pointed out: Some aspects of God's nature could, according to Locke, be know by reason. They applied to everyone. Some were known through devine revelation.

                    Seems I wall have to repeat once more:

                    Natural law is also distinct from divine law in that the latter, in the Christian tradition, normally referred to those laws that God had directly revealed through prophets and other inspired writers. Natural law can be discovered by reason alone and applies to all people, while divine law can be discovered only through God’s special revelation and applies only to those to whom it is revealed and whom God specifically indicates are to be bound. Thus some seventeenth-century commentators, Locke included, held that not all of the 10 commandments, much less the rest of the Old Testament law, were binding on all people.
                    As we will see below, even though Locke thought natural law could be known apart from special revelation, he saw no contradiction in God playing a part in the argument, so long as the relevant aspects of God’s character could be discovered by reason alone. In Locke’s theory, divine law and natural law are consistent and can overlap in content, but they are not coextensive. Thus there is no problem for Locke if the Bible commands a moral code that is stricter than the one that can be derived from natural law, but there is a real problem if the Bible teaches what is contrary to natural law.
                    I can keep repeating and repeating and repeating and repeating. It has all been said from the very beginning.
                    "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by seer View Post
                      Well some people, like our Founders, believe that whether human rights were unalienable or not was an important question. And whether one can make a rational argument for said unalienable rights. Starting with God you can make a logical connection, without God it is doubtful. And Star, I don't think anyone really cares what you consider an interesting starting point or not.
                      I seem to remember you admit the logical connection is circular? Is that correct?
                      "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Charles View Post
                        So, you still don't understand it. This is not about what Locke personally believed with regard to devine revelation. Remember the basic distinction, seer?

                        Like I pointed out: "Some aspects of God's nature could, according to Locke, be know by reason. They applied to everyone. Some were known through devine revelation. According to Locke this is an area where freedom exists anf should exist due to un certainties and need for personal convictions. You claimed it was based on the God of the Bible. That is simplified at best and actually it is such a stretch that it's wrong. I have already pointed out the layers in Locke's thinking about devine and natural rights, why his use of the Bible does not at all make this distinction irrelevant. Go back and read, it is all there, even in my very first answer to you. But it seems you prefer the simplification.

                        Like I already pointed out: Some aspects of God's nature could, according to Locke, be know by reason. They applied to everyone. Some were known through devine revelation.

                        Seems I wall have to repeat once more:

                        I can keep repeating and repeating and repeating and repeating. It has all been said from the very beginning.
                        Again Charles I quoted the fact that he believed that we were all God's property and therefore had no right to infringe on the property life and the rights of others. Now that is fact - if he thought that rights had a natural source fine, that does not change what the Founders used from Locke :We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights In other words they did not primarily use his argument from natural rights. And natural rights came for the state of nature, a nature that God created - so again it all goes back to God...
                        Last edited by seer; 06-06-2020, 12:39 PM.
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by seer View Post
                          Again Charles I quoted the fact that he believed that we were all God's property and therefore had no right to infringe on the property life and the rights of others.
                          Correct. And as I pointed out it is not a reference to a God as he is known by relevelation in the Bible but certain aspects of God's nature know through reason alone (in Locke's opinion).

                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          Now that is fact - if he thought that rights had a natural source fine, that does not change what the Founders used from Locke :We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights In other words they did not primarily use his argument from natural rights.
                          I am not sure you got "natural rights" completely right. Let me repeat:

                          As we will see below, even though Locke thought natural law could be known apart from special revelation, he saw no contradiction in God playing a part in the argument, so long as the relevant aspects of God’s character could be discovered by reason alone.
                          "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Charles View Post
                            I seem to remember you admit the logical connection is circular? Is that correct?
                            I'm not sure what you are talkng about.
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by seer View Post
                              I'm not sure what you are talkng about.
                              I seem to remember you admitted that if we were to use God as a source for right and wrong, the argument for doing so would be circular.
                              "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Charles View Post
                                Correct. And as I pointed out it is not a reference to a God as he is known by relevelation in the Bible but certain aspects of God's nature know through reason alone (in Locke's opinion).
                                Charles I was originally talking about the Founders, and they used his view on divine rights.


                                I am not sure you got "natural rights" completely right. Let me repeat:
                                Tell me Charles where do natural rights come from according to Locke. Be specific.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by little_monkey, 03-27-2024, 04:19 PM
                                16 responses
                                157 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post One Bad Pig  
                                Started by whag, 03-26-2024, 04:38 PM
                                53 responses
                                400 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Mountain Man  
                                Started by rogue06, 03-26-2024, 11:45 AM
                                25 responses
                                114 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post rogue06
                                by rogue06
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 09:21 AM
                                33 responses
                                198 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Roy
                                by Roy
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 08:34 AM
                                84 responses
                                373 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post JimL
                                by JimL
                                 
                                Working...
                                X