Time For Martial Law...

[JimL]

No contradiction here Jim. If God exists then we were created for certain ends, a purpose.

And that purpose is?

That is not the case with atheism. It is your opinion Jim, and nothing more, that we should seek the greater good.

So, what is your perfect world based upon, gods opinion, or gods edict. What if you disagree?

[Whateverman]

No contradiction here Jim. If God exists then we were created for certain ends, a purpose.

If your God exists, you mean.

[seer]

If your God exists, you mean.

Well I think it would apply to most mono theistic religions.

[seer]

And that purpose is?

To glorify God and enjoy Him forever. Everlasting communion and friendship...

So, what is your perfect world based upon, gods opinion, or gods edict. What if you disagree?

That is why there is a hell. Those who disagree will have to be removed from civil society.

[JimL]

To glorify God and enjoy Him forever. Everlasting communion and friendship...

So you think that a god created you for the sole purpose of having someone to worship him.

That is why there is a hell. Those who disagree will have to be removed from civil society.

And what is it that makes heaven a perfect world? Moral rules of behavior eminating from god?

[seer]

So you think that a god created you for the sole purpose of having someone to worship him.

Worship is simply a natural response. And where do you get "sole purpose?" It includes our everlasting communion, joy and friendship.

And what is it that makes heaven a perfect world? Moral rules of behavior eminating from god?

Of course as found in the moral teachings of Christ.

[JimL]

Worship is simply a natural response. And where do you get "sole purpose?" It includes our everlasting communion, joy and friendship.




Of course as found in the moral teachings of Christ.

So, you believe that moral behaviors which eminate from gods moral nature is what makes for a perfect society?

[seer]

So, you believe that moral behaviors which eminate from gods moral nature is what makes for a perfect society?

Moral laws do not make perfect people, and a perfect society needs perfect people.

[JimL]

Moral laws do not make perfect people, and a perfect society needs perfect people.

Not the point seer. Do you believe that moral behaviors which eminat from gods moral nature, if adhered to is what makes for a perfect society.

[seer]

Not the point seer. Do you believe that moral behaviors which eminat from gods moral nature, if adhered to is what makes for a perfect society.

It would be perfect only because God created men to be and act in a particular way. That purpose does not exist with materialism, the forces of nature did not create us to be or act in a specific way.

[JimL]

It would be perfect only because God created men to be and act in a particular way. That purpose does not exist with materialism,

We are not discussing the way men act, we are discussing the moral imperitives themselves, if they have objective existence and what purpose they serve. You are agreeing that there are a set of morals, that if adhered to, would support a more perfect society/world. Ergo, the source of those moral laws can be derived of nature, no less so than your belief that their source is god. In other words the source doesn't matter, the source is irrelevant, that morals have any objective existence in their own right is irrelevant.

the forces of nature did not create us to be or act in a specific way.

Is that a freudian slip?

[seer]

We are not discussing the way men act, we are discussing the moral imperitives themselves, if they have objective existence and what purpose they serve. You are agreeing that there are a set of morals, that if adhered to, would support a more perfect society/world. Ergo, the source of those moral laws can be derived of nature, no less so than your belief that their source is god. In other words the source doesn't matter, the source is irrelevant, that morals have any objective existence in their own right is irrelevant.

How can those moral laws be derived from nature when nature knows nothing about moral laws, nor does nature care if we survive. Nor did nature create us to have a perfect society or any society at all. When Mao slaughters million for the goal of control and social cohesion he is simply doing what his nature dictated. There can be no overriding purpose for humankind or morality in materialism.

[JimL]

How can those moral laws be derived from nature when nature knows nothing about moral laws, nor does nature care if we survive. Nor did nature create us to have a perfect society or any society at all. When Mao slaughters million for the goal of control and social cohesion he is simply doing what his nature dictated. There can be no overriding purpose for humankind or morality in materialism.

Derived of our relationship to each other and the world we live in together. As far as Mao is concerned, or the faulty conclusions that some men may come to believe is best, is irrelevant to the question of if there is a best moral system. You believe Mao was wrong. Why? Because you believe there is a better moral system in which to live in a more peaceful and just society, correct? For some unsubstantiated reason though you assert that that better system of morals need be objectively sourced. Why?

[seer]

Derived of our relationship to each other and the world we live in together. As far as Mao is concerned, or the faulty conclusions that some men may come to believe is best, is irrelevant to the question of if there is a best moral system. You believe Mao was wrong. Why? Because you believe there is a better moral system in which to live in a more peaceful and just society, correct? For some unsubstantiated reason though you assert that that better system of morals need be objectively sourced. Why?

Jim there is only what you subjectively believe is the best moral system. You believe the greater good for the greater number of people should be the goal. The Maoist or Hutu or Stalinist disagrees. And there is no objective standard to decide between the two.

[JimL]

Jim there is only what you subjectively believe is the best moral system. You believe the greater good for the greater number of people should be the goal. The Maoist or Hutu or Stalinist disagrees. And there is no objective standard to decide between the two.

Is gods moral system arbitrarily subject to god, or to reason?