Time For Martial Law...

[seer]

Is gods moral system arbitrarily subject to god, or to reason?

Jim we have been over this before. God's law is grounded in His immutable moral character. And his law furthers His goal for mankind. Which generally is to love God and your fellow man. So yes He has reasons for His laws - to fulfill His purposes for mankind.

[JimL]

Jim we have been over this before. God's law is grounded in His immutable moral character. And his law furthers His goal for mankind. Which generally is to love God and your fellow man. So yes He has reasons for His laws - to fulfill His purposes for mankind.

If morals are to further gods goal, then the moral laws would necessarily be based on reason, and if by reason moral laws support the best interests of human society, then those morals need not be objectively grounded in an external source.

[seer]

If morals are to further gods goal, then the moral laws would necessarily be based on reason, and if by reason moral laws support the best interests of human society, then those morals need not be objectively grounded in an external source.

Jim with God there is an purpose, a purpose that is not dependent on what a man may or may not think or believe. There is a right way for men to be and act. Such an over all purpose does not exist in materialism. Look at it this way:

1. JimL believes the greater good for the greater number of people is the moral goal for a society.

2. The Maoist believes that the elite should dominate and control the masses, ensuring social cohesion for society, no matter the means - including murder.

So Jim why are you right and the Maoist wrong?

[JimL]

Jim with God there is an purpose, a purpose that is not dependent on what a man may or may not think or believe. There is a right way for men to be and act. Such an over all purpose does not exist in materialism. Look at it this way:

1. JimL believes the greater good for the greater number of people is the moral goal for a society.

2. The Maoist believes that the elite should dominate and control the masses, ensuring social cohesion for society, no matter the means - including murder.

So Jim why are you right and the Maoist wrong?

Because it isn't about what I believe or what Mao believes or what you believe. Would you agree that there could be a moral system that best suits the overall interests of human society even if imperfect people such as all of us, didn't understand that. People can always disagree, like your Satan apparently disagreed with heaven being perfect.

[seer]

Because it isn't about what I believe or what Mao believes or what you believe. Would you agree that there could be a moral system that best suits the overall interests of human society even if imperfect people such as all of us, didn't understand that. People can always disagree, like your Satan apparently disagreed with heaven being perfect.

Jim again, of course it is about what you believe - you believe that overall interests of society is the greatest good, or goal. The Maoist believes that absolute control of the majority by the elite is the greatest good or goal. Both are opinions.

[JimL]

Jim again, of course it is about what you believe - you believe that overall interests of society is the greatest good, or goal. The Maoist believes that absolute control of the majority by the elite is the greatest good or goal. Both are opinions.

Could what you believe be wrong, seer?

[seer]

Could what you believe be wrong, seer?

Of course, but where was I off in the logic of my last post?

[JimL]

Of course, but where was I off in the logic of my last post?

Because what any one individual may believe is the best moral system, what is in his and in the communities best interests as a whole based upon his own reasoning could be wrong. But if it could be wrong, then it could also be right. And just as you believe in a perfect world, with a perfect moral system that serves the best intersts of the individual and the community as a whole, there must needs be a best moral system which is also based upon reason. It isn't just about whether the best system of morality is an objective reality or subjective belief, it could be either and still be based upon reason alone. Say your idea of heaven is correct where morality, a perfect moral system, is an objective truism, that same system of morality could be adopted in the real world simply on the basis of reason without appealing to an objective source for its existence. If a moral system, rules of behavior, can exist objectively, then it could also not be objective but be subjectively realized.

In short, if a best moral system can exist objectively then it can also exist subjectively.