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Are Police Systematically Racist?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    Another reason was the military offering to give (or sell dirt cheap) local police departments armored vehicles. You had cases of police departments in small towns suddenly equipped with what are effectively small tanks and when you have something like that there is a strong urge to find a "need" to use it.
    Yeah, our guys got all excited when they were 'granted' an MRAP, but it didn't take long for them to ask -- OK, when can we actually USE this? They actually found a good use for it a couple years ago in our "Memorial Day Flood", going down roads in high water, pulling vehicles out of the floods.

    Another change has been in the officers themselves. Back in the 80s and 90s you would be hard pressed to spot a police officer when they were out of uniform. They pretty much looked like everyone else. Now, all you have to do is look for the guys (and this is about male police officers) that look like they're a linebacker for an NFL team.
    And, I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that, when we were young, we were taught to respect the badge. There is NOT that respect in a lot of cases, and officers are often targeted without even having said or done anything.
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #32
      No, I don't think for the most part there is systemic racism in police depts. I think it was much more prevalent 40 - 50 years ago, esp in the South. Now days with body cams, dash cams and a phone everywhere, the few bad examples are on prominent display making it appear much worse than it actually is. Sadly, because of all the negativity surrounding this whole subject, it's going to be harder and harder recruiting officers...esp good ones. Most major cities have huge deficits already and it's getting worse by the day. Hopefully when the whole thing collapses, our right to bear arms isn't also taken away.
      "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

      "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
        That's what we call anecdotal.



        The whole "militarization" thing started with the police being horribly outgunned in the North Hollywood Shootout. No doubt, there are abuses of this power, but it was in response to a legitimate need. Every time my son-in-law does a raid on a crackhouse, they (the bad guys) have considerably more firepower than the average citizen would ever guess.
        I remember that shootout. Live on TV. *shudder*
        Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

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        • #34
          Originally posted by DesertBerean View Post
          I remember that shootout. Live on TV. *shudder*
          How near to you was that? Cause, yeh, it just seemed to go on and on.
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            How near to you was that? Cause, yeh, it just seemed to go on and on.
            ARRGGHH I had a big post and it didn't get submitted...

            I was home from a business training that I believe was pretty close to that area. Creeped me out a bit because I also had just left training in San Diego when they had that tank rampage live on TV.

            It DID go on and on. And for once the media did the cops a favor by exposing how grossly outgunned the cops were...even had to get ammo from a nearby gun shop.
            Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by DesertBerean View Post
              ARRGGHH I had a big post and it didn't get submitted...

              I was home from a business training that I believe was pretty close to that area. Creeped me out a bit because I also had just left training in San Diego when they had that tank rampage live on TV.

              It DID go on and on. And for once the media did the cops a favor by exposing how grossly outgunned the cops were...even had to get ammo from a nearby gun shop.
              Yup - back then the standard firepower for a police officer was a six round revolver, a couple speedloaders, and a shotgun locked in the trunk, or in a vertical dashboard mount.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by DesertBerean View Post
                ARRGGHH I had a big post and it didn't get submitted...

                I was home from a business training that I believe was pretty close to that area. Creeped me out a bit because I also had just left training in San Diego when they had that tank rampage live on TV.

                It DID go on and on. And for once the media did the cops a favor by exposing how grossly outgunned the cops were...even had to get ammo from a nearby gun shop.
                Not just ammo but high-powered semi-automatic rifles as well.

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  Not just ammo but high-powered semi-automatic rifles as well.
                  Absolutely, because their standard weaponry at the time was....

                  And body armor was not yet standard equipment.
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    Yup - back then the standard firepower for a police officer was a six round revolver, a couple speedloaders, and a shotgun locked in the trunk, or in a vertical dashboard mount.
                    OK, after I said revolvers, I was wondering, because that's about the time some departments were switching to semi-auto handguns.

                    Apparently, the officers in LA had both - perhaps this was the beginning of the transition. I KNOW it was the beginning of a WHOLE BUNCH of other changes.

                    la-north-hollywood-shooting-20170228.jpg

                    They are, of course, attempting to stop the two heavily armed and heavily body-armored bank robbers.
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Here's an item when they had an anniversary: https://www.dailynews.com/general-ne...ywood-shootout

                      I remember a LOT of people were arguing about how badly armed the police was back then. Lots of debate. But afer this shootout, the LA City Council couldn't stop falling all over themselves finding the money to arm their PDs.
                      Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        Not just ammo but high-powered semi-automatic rifles as well.
                        That's right.
                        Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          Absolutely, because their standard weaponry at the time was....

                          And body armor was not yet standard equipment.
                          I don't know if recent advances in body armor have changed this but some of the larger caliber rifles, like .30-06 or .30-30 for instance, tended to punch right through Kevlar vests and the like.

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            I found this article echoing the Op-Ed piece published in The Wall Street Journal by Heather Mac Donald, a Thomas W. Smith Fellow at the Manhattan Institute. The statistics are factual:

                            A solid body of evidence finds no structural bias in the criminal-justice system with regard to arrests, prosecution or sentencing, Mac Donald writes; rather, crime and suspect behavior, not race, determine most police actions. Mac Donald writes:

                            In 2019 police officers fatally shot 1,004 people, most of whom were armed or otherwise dangerous. African-Americans were about a quarter of those killed by cops last year (235), a ratio that has remained stable since 2015. That share of black victims is less than what the black crime rate would predict, since police shootings are a function of how often officers encounter armed and violent suspects. In 2018, the latest year for which such data have been published, African-Americans made up 53% of known homicide offenders in the U.S. and commit about 60% of robberies, though they are 13% of the population.


                            It also states that Black officers are more likely than White or Hispanic officers to shoot an unarmed Black suspect.

                            A 2015 Justice Department analysis of the Philadelphia Police Department found that white police officers were less likely than black or Hispanic officers to shoot unarmed black suspects. Research by Harvard economist Roland G. Fryer Jr. also found no evidence of racial discrimination in shootings. Any evidence to the contrary fails to take into account crime rates and civilian behavior before and during interactions with police
                            "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                            "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by DesertBerean View Post
                              Here's an item when they had an anniversary: https://www.dailynews.com/general-ne...ywood-shootout

                              I remember a LOT of people were arguing about how badly armed the police was back then. Lots of debate. But afer this shootout, the LA City Council couldn't stop falling all over themselves finding the money to arm their PDs.
                              I remember when our department was going through the whole "standard issue" hand gun debate for officers.
                              We were issued standard Police .38 revolvers.

                              One day, in a city council debate, our Chief asked the city council.....

                              OK, so you're a police officer called to the scene of bank robbery, and as you approach, you find yourself face to face with the robber.
                              He has a shotgun, and he's turning to point it at you.
                              He knows that the penalty for shooting a police officer is no more serious (back then) than his penalty for robbing the bank, if he manages to get away.
                              There is nothing to prevent him from shooting you in hopes of fleeing the scene.

                              You have a standard issue police .38 cal revolver, which you can shoot multiple times - up to six - and he can still return fire.
                              OR, you have the weapon we are requesting - the .357 magnum* - or a .45 semi-auto - which can STOP him in his tracks.

                              After some mumbling and grumbling between themselves, they authorized the upgrade.



                              *that became our standard duty weapon for awhile, then they began allowing 9 mil semi-auto, or .45s.
                              I STILL have my Ruger Security Six .357 revolver which I was allowed to purchase from the department when we subsequently upgraded to the 9 mil as a standard duty weapon.
                              I liked the Ruger much better.
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                                I don't know if recent advances in body armor have changed this but some of the larger caliber rifles, like .30-06 or .30-30 for instance, tended to punch right through Kevlar vests and the like.
                                Yup - ONLY specialized body armor - which is WAY too heavy and bulky for routine patrol - has a chance against a rifle like you mention. The specialized body armor has alloy steel or titanium or ceramic "backup" plates in addition to the kevlar and other composite materials. I do not know a single officer who would volunteer to test it by wearing it and being shot at by a .30-06

                                Something else to consider -- no matter how light and compact they make bodyarmor for cops, it STILL has to be resistant to "small arms" fire, and, in Texas, can be incredibly uncomfortable on a hot day.
                                That's why there's so often a battle between supervisors and patrol officers about wearing the vests - and why many departments have gone to the "over the shirt" tactical vests instead of the "under the shirt" Kevlar ones.

                                body armor then.jpg body armor now.jpg
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                                Comment

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