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“Shoot to kill” vs. shoot to stop threat

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  • “Shoot to kill” vs. shoot to stop threat

    I know I'm being a stickler about this, but in this day and age, this is a hot topic in law enforcement.

    As Sparko has so eloquently noted - it's idiotic to demand that police "shoot to wound", as in shooting somebody in the leg or arm.
    Actually, though, some city councils and other legislative bodies are pushing for just that -- "shoot to wound".

    It's a fact that, EVEN when aiming for body mass, only 17% of the shots will hit their target in a real life encounter.
    (part of this is because an officer often fires without discipline, and "throws away" a number of bullets)

    The frequently touted "police are taught to shoot to kill" is just as incorrect.

    The fact is that the police are trained to "shoot to stop the threat".
    It may result in a dead body, in which the threat is stopped.
    OR "shoot to stop" may involve a subject collapsed on the ground with a bullet through his lung, but at least "the threat is stopped".

    After an officer-involved shooting, there are at least three possible actions.
    A) A "shooting board", in which his own department analyzes the shooting to determine if it was justified, or "righteous".
    2) A criminal case, where it is alleged that the officer "gunned down" the subject, and unnecessarily killed him.
    C) And, even if the officer is cleared in a Shooting Board AND a criminal case, he can STILL be sued civilly for wrongful death, loss of income, etc.

    In all case, the agency handling the investigation or trial will oversee the finding of "what was in the officer's mind".
    If he was, INDEED, "shooting to kill", it could be argued that it was premeditated -- he ALREADY had it in his mind that the subject would be dead.
    This is particularly troublesome in a case such as an auto theft where the subject would NOT be a candidate for the death sentence.
    Therefore, the "deadly force" used to stop him was excessive.

    And, yeah, I know it all sounds like semantics, but I have been the subject of TWO shooting boards, and I've sat on half a dozen.
    In MANY cases, the officer is trained for a - pow pow - two shots, and if the subject drops, no more shots.
    An inexperienced officer can panic, and it's remarkably easy with a semi-auto police combat weapon to "empty the magazine" without even realizing it.
    That appears to be "shoot to kill".

    So "shoot to wound" is out.
    "Shoot to kill" is inviting disaster.
    "Shoot to stop the thread" is the optimum goal.

    It is not terribly unusual for the subject, when fired upon, even if he is not hit, to drop his weapon and surrender.
    The threat is stopped.

    I don't know about other Concealed Carry Permit states, but in Texas, it is VERY clear, and drilled into the Permit Holder --- SHOOT TO STOP THE THREAT.

    Basically, the Elements of Defense of Others should include:
    • Belief that your life or the live of another person is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm;
    • A Reasonable belief under the circumstances;
    • Use of only as much force as a reasonable person would use to stop the threat.


    Sadly, the temptation, especially when nobody else is around, is "shoot to kill" because then there will only be ONE version of the story, and the officer controls that.
    (bodycams can be invaluable for this)
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

  • #2
    OK, several times I typed "stop the thread" instead of "stop the threat".
    I'm gonna stop correcting those.
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      OK, several times I typed "stop the thread" instead of "stop the threat".
      I'm gonna stop correcting those.
      I was going to note that shooting someone to stop the thread is no longer allowed in California.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
        I was going to note that shooting someone to stop the thread is no longer allowed in California.
        I don't need no stinkin' gun to shoot to stop the thread.



        Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
          I was going to note that shooting someone to stop the thread is no longer allowed in California.
          And in the Great Republic of Texas, it is, indeed, an acceptable defense to murder that ... "well, yer honor -- he just needed killin".
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
            I was going to note that shooting someone to stop the thread is no longer allowed in California.
            Dang-blasted hippies ruin everything

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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            • #7
              The thing I don't get is that in many of the recordings of police shootings I've seen, the officer unloads a clip at the person who drops, and lies on the ground moaning in agony. The cop, instead of helping the victim then starts radioing in something and ... walks away.

              Is it policy to 'let them bleed out' first?

              Comment


              • #8
                Very informative thread. Well, at least the OP was informative. It kinda went downhill from there.
                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                  Very informative thread. Well, at least the OP was informative. It kinda went downhill from there.
                  Hey!


                  Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                    The thing I don't get is that in many of the recordings of police shootings I've seen, the officer unloads a clip at the person who drops, and lies on the ground moaning in agony. The cop, instead of helping the victim then starts radioing in something and ... walks away.

                    Is it policy to 'let them bleed out' first?
                    I doubt there are many police officers who are trained medics, and you can easily cause more harm than good to an injured person if you don't know what you're doing.
                    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                    Than a fool in the eyes of God


                    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                      I doubt there are many police officers who are trained medics, and you can easily cause more harm than good to an injured person if you don't know what you're doing.
                      Your answer in the other thread I think more fully answered it: When a police officer does it, and succeeds it usually doesn’t turn into a tragedy.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                        The thing I don't get is that in many of the recordings of police shootings I've seen, the officer unloads a clip
                        Pet Peeve here --- magazine.

                        at the person who drops, and lies on the ground moaning in agony.
                        Are these from TV shows, or actual video of actual events? Care to share a few?

                        The cop, instead of helping the victim then starts radioing in something and ... walks away.
                        See above. (He's probably "radioing in" for an ambulance)

                        Is it policy to 'let them bleed out' first?
                        Absolutely not.
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                          Very informative thread. Well, at least the OP was informative. It kinda went downhill from there.
                          Thanks, MM - I tried.
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                            I doubt there are many police officers who are trained medics, and you can easily cause more harm than good to an injured person if you don't know what you're doing.
                            Most officers, I would think, have at least some degree of first aid, but if it's a shoot out (BOY, I almost typed that as a bad word!!!!) and the guy has multiple 'center mass' GSWs, the officer could, indeed, do more harm than good by moving the body around.
                            His best action would be to "call the squad", and secure the scene.

                            When Leon mentioned "walk away", I immediately thought "make sure there's not another assailant", secure the scene (keep other people from destroying evidence), keep bystanders back, make sure nobody else was injured in the shootout, etc....

                            You STOP THE THREAT, then assess the situation.
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              This is kinda raw to me --- SOMEWHERE on Tweb, I recounted the incident were a friend of mine was in an officer-involved shooting of a young black kid in a dark ally - had NO WAY of knowing it was a kid, and he fired, seeing the "man" turn toward him after multiple warnings to stop. Something in the "man's" hand reflected the light of the security light, and it LOOKED to my friend like a muzzle flash, and he immediately returned fire.

                              John (don't remember if that's the name I used before) then had to sit through all kinds of analysis, including an official "shooting board", an Internal Affairs investigation -- he was grilled over and over and over. It ended up being ruled a "righteous shooting", but only after taking a heavy toll on John.

                              Subsequently, he was on a call (and I rolled in as backup) where he had stopped another kid in a traffic stop, and the kid didn't have his license with him, but lived only a couple hundred feet down the road. Inexplicably, John allowed the kid to get back in his car and drive home to get his license.

                              The kid ran into the house, and as I'm driving up to the scene (I was just getting there) I see the kid come running out the front door of the house with a deer rifle, John was just getting out of his unit -- he sees the kid with the rifle, his gun hand reaches for his gun, pulls it about halfway out of the holster, then just stands there, frozen, while the kid put a round through his chest. A 30.06 at that close range doesn't care much about body armor, especially back in those days. John was dead.

                              He hesitated, and got killed, no doubt in my mind because he thought about all that crap he went through the last time he "shot a kid".
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment

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