The reality of black and white disparities in the US

[seer]

Seer - racism created the environment that makes it more likely for a black man to leave his family. Let's also try to avoid ALL and NONE extremes. Personal responsiblity always plays into situations like this, but it is also true that people are products of their environments and there is nothing intrinsic in being white or being black that is driving this disparity. So if the environments changed, we could expect the number of black men staying with their families to match that of white people. If anyone believes otherwise, they are racist.

This is nonsense Jim and racist! You are effectively saying that black men can not be moral. That they don't have moral agency. Never mind the fact that when things were much worse for the black community black men did not abandon their families. Back when things were worse, Blacks were much closer to the white abandonment rate - 15% - 20%.

And yes, there have been some efforts, but clearly they have not yet been successful. There have also been steps backwards and massive roadblocks within the white community itself to black community progress.

In these liberal cities and states where most of these problems are happening how exactly is the white community putting up road blocks? Be specific. And will you support what inner city families have been begging for, for two decades - school choice?

[seer]

Your claim was: "Jim how do you fix 70% of inner city black males abandoning their families?" That is not exactly what the numbers show, but close. Whether this is the cause of or caused by the conditions pointed out by Ox in the OP is not one I have seen you answer. But it seems you want to rely on insinuations?

What?

And then, there were other questions in my post you did not answer. Why, seer? Here is the link: http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post744531

Because I just don't generally care about what you think or the questions you ask.

[Charles]

What?

Because I just don't generally care about what you think or the questions you ask.

So, you want me to answer but you do not want to answer yourself because you don't care.... I think you might want to think twice before you post next time, seer...

[seer]

So, you want me to answer but you do not want to answer yourself because you don't care.... I think you might want to think twice before you post next time, seer...

I did not start the conversation with you Charles.

[Littlejoe]

LBJ started the Great Society program to turn the Black vote toward the Democratic party. Many have recognized this program designed to help them get a leg up has resulted in the low income and rampant fatherless society that has arisen by incentivizing it. Women get more money per child if a father is not living in the home.

Candace Owens, now a conservative black woman, (who was a former Democrat, and was CEO of Degree180 website/consulting and planning services. The website included a blog which frequently posted anti-conservative and anti-Trump content, including mockery of his penis size. In a 2015 column that Owens wrote for the site, she criticized conservative Republicans, writing about the "bat-[expletive deleted]-crazy antics of the Republican Tea Party", adding "The good news is, they will eventually die off (peacefully in their sleep, we hope), and then we can get right on with the OBVIOUS social change that needs to happen, IMMEDIATELY.") has her take on things. In an interview with Evi Magazine Candace says:

"CANDACE: The welfare system was created to marry black Americans to the government. Since its creation, our communities have deteriorated and our progress, across virtually every single metric, has dramatically declined. The single motherhood rate has jumped to a staggering 74% in our community thanks to policies that encourage father absence — more children equates to more welfare benefits. Crime, poverty, abortion — every problem that inflicts our community today can be traced back to a detrimental government policy."

So, ISTM the way out is to de-incentivize the fatherless home, criminal behaviors, and poverty by incentivize getting off the whole welfare system. How that happens is a discussion worth having...and it will take time for the now ingrained behaviors to be changed. Also from the interview:

BRITTANY: What do you think is the best approach to truly empowering black Americans?

CANDACE: Because one could argue the current systems in place only hold them back... Education. True education. Not the miseducation that takes place in the school systems today. For me, it started as a simple spark. Once I realized that I had been lied to about one thing — all of the other programmed lies were subsequently exposed. I now research matters independently and feel, for the first time in my life, that I am truly informed.


Once we begin to truly understand the source of our oppression, which I believe is government dependency, we will begin making different decisions. We will understand the importance of the family structure, and we’ll begin to seek opportunities as opposed to reparations. Once we begin thinking rationally, as opposed to reacting emotionally, we will no longer be able to be manipulated by the Left.

[seanD]

Seer is 100% correct. The issue has to be solved within the community itself. Those outside can only do so much.

[oxmixmudd]

This is nonsense Jim and racist! You are effectively saying that black men can not be moral. That they don't have moral agency. Never mind the fact that when things were much worse for the black community black men did not abandon their families. Back when things were worse, Blacks were much closer to the white abandonment rate - 15% - 20%.

No Seer, I'm not saying black men can't be moral. And the only way I can see for you to believe my statements imply that is to be using a grossly over simplified mental model of the problem. We must ask, why would there have been a negative change over time. And one of the things we can discover doing that is that there have been several cultural changes along the way that have had different impacts on the white community than the black community. One of those was the sexual revolution, which tends to be more destructive in poorer communities than in more wealthy communities. So we'd need to track that change in nationwide social mores on the family. There was also the phenomenon of white flight from the cities, removing wealth from the cities, and increasing the overall poverty levels found in cities. There was also the influx and expansion of drug cultures, which aslo tend to be far more destructive to poor communities than to wealthy communities. Just in those three elements alone, we can see that from the time of the civil rights changes to the present, there have been several societal changes that are more damaging to poorer communities. And since from the outset black communities tended to be poorer, these changes impacted them more.

We also know that due to the expansion of the drug cultures in poorer communities crime increased. And that increased crime produces greater incarcerations which again impacts families and forces separations or single parent situations. And males are the more likely to be incarcerated. They are the more aggressive.

Slavery itself tilted the scales toward more matriarchal families and culture, because when a master sold a slave, they often did not sell the entire family. The father and the mother would go separate ways, but the children would stay with the mothers.

We must be careful when analyzing these issues to never let our thinking be tricked into assuming the difference is based on the physical difference between white and black. Given the same environment, we are each capable of the same success, goodness, badness. So if there is some major moral difference like this - it is cultural, environmental. And given the strong destructive influence of slavery and racism for half a millennia, the connections may not be obvious, or there may well be multiple long threads working together to produce a result.

In these liberal cities and states where most of these problems are happening how exactly is the white community putting up road blocks? Be specific.

Wow. Well how about the obvious one given the current situations: Biased policing and justice systems keeping more men in jail and allowing more crime to be part of black communities.

But it is so much more than that. Bias in real estate. Bias in business loans. Disperate educational opportunities. An example here from Baltimore. There is a connection between student success and school funding. The better a school's students do, the more funding that school gets. Seems 'fair' in a way - right? You want to fund the schools that are doing the best so they can do better, making the overall success of the entire school system higher.

But what about schools where the kids are themselves disadvantaged, poor, coming from crime ridden neighborhoods. They NEED more funding and better teachers to overcome those roadblocks, BUT the system itself under funds those schools UNLESS they can find a way in their underfunded state school with kids from less advantaged backgrounds to somehow overcome and succeed. Cart before the horse. But in the end, this perpetuates the poverty and the oppression of that area.

Not as much recently, but many of the decisions that have driven these circumstances have been made by white leaders. White real-estate agents steering white people to white neighborhoods. White bankers denying black businesses loans. And so on. White people just avoiding more crime ridden areas and pushing housing prices up in the better neighborhoods choking out poorer buyers.

There are thousands of ways culturally imbedded racism can perpetuate racially based inequities even when the law requires equality. And it has been this way for a very long time. And it will not change without a lot of work - by everyone.

[oxmixmudd]

Seer is 100% correct. The issue has to be solved within the community itself. Those outside can only do so much.

You are partially correct. Community buy in and cooperation is critical. But It will take all of us to remove the roadblocks and give the needed boost required. But I think you are underestimating the contribution required from the outside. The part those outside play is to support and not to hinder. There is much more hindering going on that many will admit, and there is a lot more support that is available than is being given. Right now, on both counts, it is too much and the poverty and disparities are still far too great.

[seanD]

You are partially correct. Community buy in and cooperation is critical. But It will take all of us to remove the roadblocks and give the needed boost required. But I think you are underestimating the contribution required from the outside. The part those outside play is to support and not to hinder. There is much more hindering going on that many will admit, and there is a lot more support that is available than is being given. Right now, on both counts, it is too much and the poverty and disparities are still far too great.

There are enough resources out there for minorities to "come up" with a bit hard work. I know because I'm a minority from an urban environment who had to utilize those resources myself. The solution is going to have to come from within the communities to let minorities know those resources exist and that it's okay to utilize those resources or show them how to utilize them. Just some examples of this is technology and education. Minority communities are well behind the curve of technology. But this is gradually changing. Educated minorities are typically frowned upon or belittled in minority communities. But thankfully this is gradually changing as well, especially among the youth. The resources are there, but it has to start from within. Typical liberal methodology of drumming into minorities that they're helpless creatures that need help from whites is not only rooted in racism (and a very insidious type of racism because it's subtle and deceptive), but destructive.

[seer]

No Seer, I'm not saying black men can't be moral. And the only way I can see for you to believe my statements imply that is to be using a grossly over simplified mental model of the problem. We must ask, why would there have been a negative change over time. And one of the things we can discover doing that is that there have been several cultural changes along the way that have had different impacts on the white community than the black community. One of those was the sexual revolution, which tends to be more destructive in poorer communities than in more wealthy communities. So we'd need to track that change in nationwide social mores on the family. There was also the phenomenon of white flight from the cities, removing wealth from the cities, and increasing the overall poverty levels found in cities. There was also the influx and expansion of drug cultures, which aslo tend to be far more destructive to poor communities than to wealthy communities. Just in those three elements alone, we can see that from the time of the civil rights changes to the present, there have been several societal changes that are more damaging to poorer communities. And since from the outset black communities tended to be poorer, these changes impacted them more.

We also know that due to the expansion of the drug cultures in poorer communities crime increased. And that increased crime produces greater incarcerations which again impacts families and forces separations or single parent situations. And males are the more likely to be incarcerated. They are the more aggressive.

Slavery itself tilted the scales toward more matriarchal families and culture, because when a master sold a slave, they often did not sell the entire family. The father and the mother would go separate ways, but the children would stay with the mothers.

We must be careful when analyzing these issues to never let our thinking be tricked into assuming the difference is based on the physical difference between white and black. Given the same environment, we are each capable of the same success, goodness, badness. So if there is some major moral difference like this - it is cultural, environmental. And given the strong destructive influence of slavery and racism for half a millennia, the connections may not be obvious, or there may well be multiple long threads working together to produce a result.


Wow. Well how about the obvious one given the current situations: Biased policing and justice systems keeping more men in jail and allowing more crime to be part of black communities.

But it is so much more than that. Bias in real estate. Bias in business loans. Disperate educational opportunities. An example here from Baltimore. There is a connection between student success and school funding. The better a school's students do, the more funding that school gets. Seems 'fair' in a way - right? You want to fund the schools that are doing the best so they can do better, making the overall success of the entire school system higher.

But what about schools where the kids are themselves disadvantaged, poor, coming from crime ridden neighborhoods. They NEED more funding and better teachers to overcome those roadblocks, BUT the system itself under funds those schools UNLESS they can find a way in their underfunded state school with kids from less advantaged backgrounds to somehow overcome and succeed. Cart before the horse. But in the end, this perpetuates the poverty and the oppression of that area.

Not as much recently, but many of the decisions that have driven these circumstances have been made by white leaders. White real-estate agents steering white people to white neighborhoods. White bankers denying black businesses loans. And so on. White people just avoiding more crime ridden areas and pushing housing prices up in the better neighborhoods choking out poorer buyers.

There are thousands of ways culturally imbedded racism can perpetuate racially based inequities even when the law requires equality. And it has been this way for a very long time. And it will not change without a lot of work - by everyone.

Jim are you in favor of school choice? And in my liberal state my tax dollars go to fund inner city schools where I don't even live. Millions of dollars have been poured in, the average is $14,000 a year - with no increase in test scores or graduation rates. Sorry - more money is not the answer.

[Mountain Man]

No MM, you are wrong. And these numbers show you exactly why. How many people succeed depends on many factors, but a big factor is where they start and the education and environmental support they get along the way. These massive environmental disparities themselves significantly reduce the probability of success simply because one is black.

What has been removed are legal obstacles. Now it is at least theoretically possible for black people and white people to be equal. But there is a lot more to solving the problem than just removing the chains from the cage doors.

That didn't answer a single one of my questions. You sound like one of those who wants to point the finger at white people and yell, "Guilty!" and think this somehow accomplishes something.

[oxmixmudd]

That didn't answer a single one of my questions. You sound like one of those who wants to point the finger at white people and yell, "Guilty!" and think this somehow accomplishes something.

MM - I address your assumption:

The days of a black person being unable to succeed simply because he's black are in the distant past.

That assumption is wrong, and I showed you why. Your questions are rhetorical and based on the truth of your assumption. What you are actually saying is that since "the days a black person being unable to succeed because he's black are in the distant past" black people should stop blaming anything but themselves for their failure.

And my answer says, no, your assumption is false. There is a lot more to putting that problem into the past than just removing legal obstacles. There are still many obstacles in the way of a black person's success, and many times they do not succeed because of the obstacles in their way because they are black.

Understanding that your assumption is FALSE, the answer to your rhetorical questions then are obvious: when the days a black man can't succeed because he is black are in the past.

[oxmixmudd]

Jim are you in favor of school choice? And in my liberal state my tax dollars go to fund inner city schools where I don't even live. Millions of dollars have been poured in, the average is $14,000 a year - with no increase in test scores or graduation rates. Sorry - more money is not the answer.

non-sequitur:

The point of my post was to show your error about the implications of the high abandonment rate of black males, and to provide examples of the road blocks you want to claim do not exist.

Nowhere in my response is a proposed solution to one of the roadblocks you said didn't exist.

---

So - I showed the problem with both or your points. Do you have any counter to my actual post or do you concede the error found in your statements?

[Mountain Man]

MM - I address your assumption...

No, you're addressing your own assumptions about what you think I'm saying.

Case in point:

There is a lot more to putting that problem into the past than just removing legal obstacles.

What makes you think I was referring only to legal obstacles?

[oxmixmudd]

There are enough resources out there for minorities to "come up" with a bit hard work. I know because I'm a minority from an urban environment who had to utilize those resources myself. The solution is going to have to come from within the communities to let minorities know those resources exist and that it's okay to utilize those resources or show them how to utilize them.

This is a form of education. Who will pay for the education program itself and getting the word out?

Just some examples of this is technology and education. Minority communities are well behind the curve of technology.

Yes, technology requires money and education, both of which are available in diminished capacity in minority communities. Who pays for making up the difference, where does that money come from?

But this is gradually changing.

How about help to make it change faster?

Educated minorities are typically frowned upon or belittled in minority communities.

And where does that come from? I would say that is a legacy of Slavery, poverty, and racial oppression. How does it change? How do we help minority adults and children understand the value of education? How do we dispel the hopelessness that comes from believing there is no way out that keeps people from seeking a way out and making use of the resources they have?

But thankfully this is gradually changing as well, especially among the youth.

Again - how about helping that change to happen faster?

The resources are there, but it has to start from within.

How so? How are they already there. And what initiates the change from within? Doesn't that take additional resources, manpower, cooperation to make that change happen?

Typical liberal methodology of drumming into minorities that they're helpless creatures that need help from whites is not only rooted in racism (and a very insidious type of racism because it's subtle and deceptive), but destructive.

I agree that is not helpful. How about drumming into minorities there is a way out. That if they just reach out, help will be given. How about changing the police/minority community relationship so they have each other's back and the gangs and thugs can be routed so the minority kids are going to school and getting educations and so they are not forced into gangs to survive?

All that takes resources, time and effort, both inside and outside the community.

You'll get no argument from me that often money is wasted because of a lack of common sense on the part of those that want to help. How about marrying the desire to help with a practical mentality and experience that is not based wishful thinking but hard experience in the environments that need the help?

And then - supposing those problems are solved. We still need to remove the housing, pay inequality, education inequalities so that more than just the most motivated, strongest willed folk can climb their way out.