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Thread: The reality of black and white disparities in the US

  1. #41
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxVel View Post
    So both these terms are imprecise and too easily used to attack the character and motives of someone else. 'You don't know it, but you are a cultural racist' - that discredits the person, but is vague enough to be impossible to refute. And, strangely, it seems to be applied only to people of a particular race....
    It's a classic kafkatrap.

    One very notable pathology is a form of argument that, reduced to essence, runs like this: “Your refusal to acknowledge that you are guilty of {sin,racism,sexism, homophobia,oppression…} confirms that you are guilty of {sin,racism,sexism, homophobia,oppression…}.” I’ve been presented with enough instances of this recently that I’ve decided that it needs a name. I call this general style of argument “kafkatrapping”, and the above the Model A kafkatrap. In this essay, I will show that the kafkatrap is a form of argument that is so fallacious and manipulative that those subjected to it are entitled to reject it based entirely on the form of the argument, without reference to whatever particular sin or thoughtcrime is being alleged. I will also attempt to show that kafkatrapping is so self-destructive to the causes that employ it that change activists should root it out of their own speech and thoughts.

    My reference, of course, is to Franz Kafka’s “The Trial”, in which the protagonist Josef K. is accused of crimes the nature of which are never actually specified, and enmeshed in a process designed to degrade, humiliate, and destroy him whether or not he has in fact committed any crime at all. The only way out of the trap is for him to acquiesce in his own destruction; indeed, forcing him to that point of acquiescence and the collapse of his will to live as a free human being seems to be the only point of the process, if it has one at all.

    This is almost exactly the way the kafkatrap operates in religious and political argument. Real crimes – actual transgressions against flesh-and-blood individuals – are generally not specified. The aim of the kafkatrap is to produce a kind of free-floating guilt in the subject, a conviction of sinfulness that can be manipulated by the operator to make the subject say and do things that are convenient to the operator’s personal, political, or religious goals. Ideally, the subject will then internalize these demands, and then become complicit in the kafkatrapping of others.

    http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=2122

    So in ox's case, "You're guilty because you're white, and if you deny it, that just proves your guilt."
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  2. Amen RumTumTugger amen'd this post.
  3. #42
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    Nope, you need to review the definition of 'STRAWMAN'. my reply is an example of reductio ad absurdum
    Ham-handed attempts at reductio ad absurdum often result in the straw man fallacy. Saying that things like fatherless homes and gangs are problems of the black community's own making does not logically lead to the conclusion that therefore, the enslavement of their ancestors is also their fault.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  4. #43
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    They won't be happy until we all do this:

    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

  5. #44
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Ham-handed attempts at reductio ad absurdum often result in the straw man fallacy. Saying that things like fatherless homes and gangs are problems of the black community's own making does not logically lead to the conclusion that therefore, the enslavement of their ancestors is also their fault.
    I Didn't say it was equal. I said it was equally absurd.
    He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

    "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

  6. #45
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    It's a classic kafkatrap.

    One very notable pathology is a form of argument that, reduced to essence, runs like this: “Your refusal to acknowledge that you are guilty of {sin,racism,sexism, homophobia,oppression…} confirms that you are guilty of {sin,racism,sexism, homophobia,oppression…}.” I’ve been presented with enough instances of this recently that I’ve decided that it needs a name. I call this general style of argument “kafkatrapping”, and the above the Model A kafkatrap. In this essay, I will show that the kafkatrap is a form of argument that is so fallacious and manipulative that those subjected to it are entitled to reject it based entirely on the form of the argument, without reference to whatever particular sin or thoughtcrime is being alleged. I will also attempt to show that kafkatrapping is so self-destructive to the causes that employ it that change activists should root it out of their own speech and thoughts.

    My reference, of course, is to Franz Kafka’s “The Trial”, in which the protagonist Josef K. is accused of crimes the nature of which are never actually specified, and enmeshed in a process designed to degrade, humiliate, and destroy him whether or not he has in fact committed any crime at all. The only way out of the trap is for him to acquiesce in his own destruction; indeed, forcing him to that point of acquiescence and the collapse of his will to live as a free human being seems to be the only point of the process, if it has one at all.

    This is almost exactly the way the kafkatrap operates in religious and political argument. Real crimes – actual transgressions against flesh-and-blood individuals – are generally not specified. The aim of the kafkatrap is to produce a kind of free-floating guilt in the subject, a conviction of sinfulness that can be manipulated by the operator to make the subject say and do things that are convenient to the operator’s personal, political, or religious goals. Ideally, the subject will then internalize these demands, and then become complicit in the kafkatrapping of others.

    http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=2122

    So in ox's case, "You're guilty because you're white, and if you deny it, that just proves your guilt."
    Guilty and responsible are two different concepts. And I can bear responsibility without being guilty. In this case, we as the privileged class benefit from what has transpired before us, and black people suffer on account of it. We didn't create the problem - we are not 'guilty' of causing it - but we benefited from what the guilty did. We then, having benefited from the suffering of others, from what the quilty did, have a responsibility to try to make it right.

    This is morality 101.
    Last edited by oxmixmudd; 06-04-2020 at 09:57 AM.
    He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

    "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

  7. #46
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    Guilty and responsible are two different concepts. And I can bear responsibility without being guilty. In this case, we as the privileged class benefit from what has transpired before us, and black people suffer on account of it. We didn't create the problem - we are not 'guilty' of causing it - but we benefited from what the guilty did. We then, having benefited from the suffering of others, from what the quilty did, have a responsibility to try to make it right.

    This is morality 101.
    What you describe is commonly referred to as "white guilt", that is to say that all whites are inherently guilty of benefitting from unfair "privilege" regardless of the actions of the individual.

    So you're guilty because you're white, and if you don't recognize your own guilt, it's because your "white privilege" prevents you from seeing it, which is definitive proof of your guilt.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  8. Amen RumTumTugger amen'd this post.
  9. #47
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    What you describe is commonly referred to as "white guilt", that is to say that all whites are inherently guilty of benefitting from unfair "privilege" regardless of the actions of the individual.

    So you're guilty because you're white, and if you don't recognize your own guilt, it's because your "white privilege" prevents you from seeing it, which is definitive proof of your guilt.
    MM, I described what I'm tslking about , and its basic morality, basic maturity. "White Guilt" as you use the term is just a racist rebranding in an attempt to mock those that recognize their moral responsibility to try to solve the curse racism and slavery has brought to all of us.
    He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

    "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

  10. #48
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    MM, I described what I'm tslking about , and its basic morality, basic maturity. "White Guilt" as you use the term is just a racist rebranding in an attempt to mock those that recognize their moral responsibility to try to solve the curse racism and slavery has brought to all of us.
    Right, anybody who disagrees with you about racial issues is automatically racist.

    You've become depressingly predictable.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  11. #49
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Right, anybody who disagrees with you about racial issues is automatically racist.

    You've become depressingly predictable.
    Not automatically, but you have a racist history in your posts, and added failing to recognize the white supremacy, and privilege in the history of the USA.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  12. #50
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Right, anybody who disagrees with you about racial issues is automatically racist.

    You've become depressingly predictable.
    When have you posted any sort of logical counter to my posts about racism? The majority of the time when that is mentioned you are only about name calling and sarcasm.

    When you do actually post content, You deny, but do not support your denials. you post time after time that which shifts blame from the McMichaels to Arbery, but almost never acknowledge news that further condemns them, You never post recognizing the racial disparities that exist, but rather try to deny they exist. And you mock the concept of moral responsibility to the poor, the oppressed, which manifests here in that black/white disparity.

    Your accusations are empty MM.
    Last edited by oxmixmudd; 06-05-2020 at 06:51 AM.
    He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

    "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

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