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The reality of black and white disparities in the US

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    No, you're addressing your own assumptions about what you think I'm saying.

    Case in point:


    What makes you think I was referring only to legal obstacles?
    The only obstacle that has been (theoretically) fully removed are the legal ones. Black people are legally no longer inferior to whites. They can vote. And they can't be legally denied access to anything a white person in our nation has access to. Legally. But there are still plenty of ways that is simply not a reality. Anything else you refer to still exists in part or in whole. I showed you the sorts of obstacles that continue to exist MM. Obstacles like poverty and poor education. They are still there. And there are obstacles that have grown, like crime and gangs.

    And I did, in fact, respond to exactly what you wrote. Now if you meant something other than what you wrote, reword your comment and try again.
    My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

    If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

    This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
      LBJ started the Great Society program to turn the Black vote toward the Democratic party. Many have recognized this program designed to help them get a leg up has resulted in the low income and rampant fatherless society that has arisen by incentivizing it. Women get more money per child if a father is not living in the home.

      Candace Owens, now a conservative black woman, (who was a former Democrat, and was CEO of Degree180 website/consulting and planning services. The website included a blog which frequently posted anti-conservative and anti-Trump content, including mockery of his penis size. In a 2015 column that Owens wrote for the site, she criticized conservative Republicans, writing about the "bat-[expletive deleted]-crazy antics of the Republican Tea Party", adding "The good news is, they will eventually die off (peacefully in their sleep, we hope), and then we can get right on with the OBVIOUS social change that needs to happen, IMMEDIATELY.") has her take on things. In an interview with Evi Magazine Candace says:

      "CANDACE: The welfare system was created to marry black Americans to the government. Since its creation, our communities have deteriorated and our progress, across virtually every single metric, has dramatically declined. The single motherhood rate has jumped to a staggering 74% in our community thanks to policies that encourage father absence — more children equates to more welfare benefits. Crime, poverty, abortion — every problem that inflicts our community today can be traced back to a detrimental government policy."


      So, ISTM the way out is to de-incentivize the fatherless home, criminal behaviors, and poverty by incentivize getting off the whole welfare system. How that happens is a discussion worth having...and it will take time for the now ingrained behaviors to be changed. Also from the interview:

      BRITTANY: What do you think is the best approach to truly empowering black Americans?

      CANDACE: Because one could argue the current systems in place only hold them back... Education. True education. Not the miseducation that takes place in the school systems today. For me, it started as a simple spark. Once I realized that I had been lied to about one thing — all of the other programmed lies were subsequently exposed. I now research matters independently and feel, for the first time in my life, that I am truly informed.


      Once we begin to truly understand the source of our oppression, which I believe is government dependency, we will begin making different decisions. We will understand the importance of the family structure, and we’ll begin to seek opportunities as opposed to reparations. Once we begin thinking rationally, as opposed to reacting emotionally, we will no longer be able to be manipulated by the Left.
      good post, will try to address when I have more time.
      My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

      If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

      This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
        Obstacles like poverty and poor education. They are still there. And there are obstacles that have grown, like crime and gangs.
        Those are largely obstacles of their own making, encouraged in no small part by liberals who have been doing everything they can for several generations to convince blacks that they're inherently disadvantaged and will never succeed without the benevolence of white people. This creates a fatalistic attitude.
        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
        Than a fool in the eyes of God


        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
          Those are largely obstacles of their own making, encouraged in no small part by liberals who have been doing everything they can for several generations to convince blacks that they're inherently disadvantaged and will never succeed without the benevolence of white people. This creates a fatalistic attitude.
          "their own making".

          I love it. You may as well say it's all their fault for letting us make them our slaves.
          My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

          If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

          This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
            LBJ started the Great Society program to turn the Black vote toward the Democratic party. Many have recognized this program designed to help them get a leg up has resulted in the low income and rampant fatherless society that has arisen by incentivizing it. Women get more money per child if a father is not living in the home.

            Candace Owens, now a conservative black woman, (who was a former Democrat, and was CEO of Degree180 website/consulting and planning services. The website included a blog which frequently posted anti-conservative and anti-Trump content, including mockery of his penis size. In a 2015 column that Owens wrote for the site, she criticized conservative Republicans, writing about the "bat-[expletive deleted]-crazy antics of the Republican Tea Party", adding "The good news is, they will eventually die off (peacefully in their sleep, we hope), and then we can get right on with the OBVIOUS social change that needs to happen, IMMEDIATELY.") has her take on things. In an interview with Evi Magazine Candace says:

            "CANDACE: The welfare system was created to marry black Americans to the government. Since its creation, our communities have deteriorated and our progress, across virtually every single metric, has dramatically declined. The single motherhood rate has jumped to a staggering 74% in our community thanks to policies that encourage father absence — more children equates to more welfare benefits. Crime, poverty, abortion — every problem that inflicts our community today can be traced back to a detrimental government policy."


            So, ISTM the way out is to de-incentivize the fatherless home, criminal behaviors, and poverty by incentivize getting off the whole welfare system. How that happens is a discussion worth having...and it will take time for the now ingrained behaviors to be changed. Also from the interview:

            BRITTANY: What do you think is the best approach to truly empowering black Americans?

            CANDACE: Because one could argue the current systems in place only hold them back... Education. True education. Not the miseducation that takes place in the school systems today. For me, it started as a simple spark. Once I realized that I had been lied to about one thing — all of the other programmed lies were subsequently exposed. I now research matters independently and feel, for the first time in my life, that I am truly informed.


            Once we begin to truly understand the source of our oppression, which I believe is government dependency, we will begin making different decisions. We will understand the importance of the family structure, and we’ll begin to seek opportunities as opposed to reparations. Once we begin thinking rationally, as opposed to reacting emotionally, we will no longer be able to be manipulated by the Left.
            Thanks littlejoe. This is perhaps one of the hardest elements to sift through and balance in this. A government handout is not the solution. We agree. Any person needs the pride of knowing they worked hard and succeeded at what they tried to do. But at the same time, this can't resolve to 'they need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps' because, metaphorically, many don't have boots as it were.

            None of us truly make it 'on our own'. There are always people around us that help. People that helped form us, encourage us. Situations that launched is in the right direction. I tend to think the idea the 'liberals want to keep them dependent on the government' is a myth, just another way to create division. But some people don't recognize that too much 'help' is a hindrance. The old adage is give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.

            Another thing that comes to mind is that the most successful chorus leader I know has a way of getting you to do things because somehow he makes you believe that not only does he respect you, he believes in you and what you can do, and not only that, he believes you actually want to do what needs to be done. It's amazing how much better that works than begging or beating.

            Somehow that needs to make it into the equation. We believe to truly believe that black people are just like any other people. They want to be happy, They want to be free, they want to know they did good. They just need the chance to do that - just like every other person on the face of the earth.

            So there is a huge disparity. We have to acknowledge that. We have to accept that. Some can't even do that much.

            The cause of that disparity is a massive legacy of slavery, poverty, racism, and abuse. Maybe even welfare on top. But we need to understand and acknowledge our history and our culture is THE primary contributor to the situation. Maybe not ME directly, but people in my direct ancestral line, and the culture derived from it that I live in and benefit from every day. Many simply can NOT acknowledge this. Partly because if we are responsible, we are then obligated to try to do something about it.

            But those two things are relatively easy in the grand scheme of this problem. The really hard part is what the heck is the right thing to do? What are the right things to do? How can we help when a lot of this is ground into stone in terms of a culture and poverty and crime and adults inculcated with a way of thinking and life choices that block the paths to true freedom and success.

            But I'm pretty sure just giving away boatloads of money is not the answer. Likewise, I'm pretty sure hands off it's their problem good luck while I watch you try from the sidelines is not the answer either.

            We have to try. We have to try hard.
            My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

            If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

            This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
              So many here seem intent on being behind ideas that try to play down or minimize the fundamental disparities the exist between a typical white family vs a typical black family. As if racism and poverty and police interactions and justice differentials are all 'exaggeraged' by the 'liberal' media. But this is not a 'conservative' vs 'liberal' issue, this is a reality.

              CNN put up a set of numbers today that help put this into perspective. And no, I'm not going to ask those that play this down as 'liberal propaganda' to actually read a CNN article. I'm just going to put up the numbers right here in front for all to see.

              https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/03/polit...ity/index.html

              These numbers show part of what I mean by 'cultural racism' and 'the legacy of slavery'. What it shows is that changes in the law itself simply are not enough. Yes, there have been efforts to make a difference, but they simply have not been enough. And we still have a massive disparity in the US, and efforts to cast blame predominantly on the black community itself are in fact evidence that continued 'cultural racism' and 'legacy of slavery'. What it reveals is why these protests are happening, and why they are so intense, and why any solution will take a lot of effort and time by ALL to make these disparities a thing of the past.

              NET worth: White family: $171,000, Black family: $17.600

              Income: White family: $71,000, Black family: $41,000

              Unemployment(pre covid): White: 3.1%, Black 5.8% (post covid) White 14.2%, Black 16.7%

              Poverty: White: 8.1%, Black: 20.8%

              No Health care: White: 5.4%, Black: 9.7%

              This last one is not clearly 'caused' by the above factors (cultural racism/legacy of slavery) except perhaps as it relates to healthcare or type of Job (lower income/wealth -> more risky jobs or less capacity not to work):

              COVID deaths: White 13%, Black 23%

              These numbers do not address the well known, well researched disparities in arrest and punishment - even accounting for higher crime environments. Nor do they show the well known, well researched disparities in hunger, education, or single parent families.

              These are just some of the realities that are a consequence of centuries of slavery followed by another century of oppression followed by 60 years of half-hearted efforts on the heals of the civil rights movement and amendment to correct half a millenia of oppression.

              The time has come to do what is necessary to change this picture. It won't be easy, It will not be quick, and it won't be cheap. But it will never happen if those of us with the wealth and with the privilege refuse to recognize the problem and put forth real and sacrificial effort to change it.
              Can you specify three first steps you would take?

              For instance, it is becoming popular to "defund police." Would that be a good first step to you?

              Would you rewrite the constitution?

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                "their own making".

                I love it. You may as well say it's all their fault for letting us make them our slaves.
                So you're reduced to attacking straw men.

                Okay then.
                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                  non-sequitur:

                  The point of my post was to show your error about the implications of the high abandonment rate of black males, and to provide examples of the road blocks you want to claim do not exist.

                  Nowhere in my response is a proposed solution to one of the roadblocks you said didn't exist.

                  ---

                  So - I showed the problem with both or your points. Do you have any counter to my actual post or do you concede the error found in your statements?
                  Jim you brought up education. Black families are begging for school choice why won't you support that? Pouring money into these school districts hasn't helped in these past fifty years.
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                    So many here seem intent on being behind ideas that try to play down or minimize the fundamental disparities the exist between a typical white family vs a typical black family. As if racism and poverty and police interactions and justice differentials are all 'exaggeraged' by the 'liberal' media. But this is not a 'conservative' vs 'liberal' issue, this is a reality.
                    I can't recall anyone here recently who denies that there are differences between the wealth education, etc etc of the average white and the average black. What people do differ from you on is what exactly all the causes are, and how they should be best addressed.


                    Originally posted by oxmixmudd
                    CNN put up a set of numbers today that help put this into perspective. And no, I'm not going to ask those that play this down as 'liberal propaganda' to actually read a CNN article. I'm just going to put up the numbers right here in front for all to see.

                    https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/03/polit...ity/index.html

                    These numbers show part of what I mean by 'cultural racism' and 'the legacy of slavery'. What it shows is that changes in the law itself simply are not enough. Yes, there have been efforts to make a difference, but they simply have not been enough.

                    I strongly suspect that 'cultural racism' is largely a bogus concept, unless that by it you mean Americans' distressing habit of seeing every interaction through the lens of 'race'. Far better to point to actual clear instances of racism, than to accuse a whole group (actually a whole race, ironically) of racism. The 'legacy of slavery' is another term that suffers from vagueness - there is, AFAIK, no-one alive today who was a slave, or owned a slave, or whose parents were slaves or owned slaves. And very few, if any whose grandparents were. So both these terms are imprecise and too easily used to attack the character and motives of someone else. 'You don't know it, but you are a cultural racist' - that discredits the person, but is vague enough to be impossible to refute. And, strangely, it seems to be applied only to people of a particular race....




                    Originally posted by oxmixmudd
                    And we still have a massive disparity in the US, and efforts to cast blame predominantly on the black community itself are in fact evidence that continued 'cultural racism' and 'legacy of slavery'.
                    This is a really problematic sentence, because you're attributing motive to people who may disagree with you over facts or causes or reasons for something. Effectively you're saying that someone who disagrees with you in some way on this issue, merely by their disagreement with you, is continuing racism and the effects of slavery. Your 'efforts to cast blame' is someone else's 'putting responsibility for people's choices on those people themselves'.

                    By taking this approach you've already framed the discussion in such a way that either people agree with your views or accept that they're contributing to racism etc. Can you not see that this framing inevitably leads to conflict and attacks rather than a real exchange where people can learn from each other?


                    Originally posted by oxmixmudd
                    What it reveals is why these protests are happening, and why they are so intense, and why any solution will take a lot of effort and time by ALL to make these disparities a thing of the past.

                    NET worth: White family: $171,000, Black family: $17.600

                    Income: White family: $71,000, Black family: $41,000

                    Unemployment(pre covid): White: 3.1%, Black 5.8% (post covid) White 14.2%, Black 16.7%

                    Poverty: White: 8.1%, Black: 20.8%

                    No Health care: White: 5.4%, Black: 9.7%

                    This last one is not clearly 'caused' by the above factors (cultural racism/legacy of slavery) except perhaps as it relates to healthcare or type of Job (lower income/wealth -> more risky jobs or less capacity not to work):

                    COVID deaths: White 13%, Black 23%

                    These numbers do not address the well known, well researched disparities in arrest and punishment - even accounting for higher crime environments. Nor do they show the well known, well researched disparities in hunger, education, or single parent families.
                    That there are disparities no reasonable person denies. But disparities per se are not automatically evidence of unfairness or discrimination. Some disparities may be because of choices made by some groups and not by other groups. An example is the much-vaunted disparity in salary between men and women. Analysed more closely, and corrected for choices such as choice of profession, time spent in the profession, hours worked, time out of the profession and then returning, and so on it largely disappears.

                    So we need a closer analysis of these numbers, and particularly why they are different. For example, what is the effect of a behaviour choice - to have children out of wedlock and then abandon the family - on things like poverty, income, crime rates and so on? What do these figures look like when we compare groups that have similar rates of solo mother families?

                    Racism is a real problem, and we are not going to get to any solutions until we understand exactly what the causes of these differences are. Saying 'racism' alone is too simplistic, and I think, disempowers people. It says to them 'no matter what your choices, your problems are because someone else is acting wrongly towards you'. It creates hopelessness and fatalism. It enables copping out of personal responsibility. We have to say 'this problem is your fault, and this one is because of this person acting wrongly towards you'. We have to teach, encourage and reward people who make good choices, and for those who don't, we have to have some real consequences, and a helping hand to start again and make better choices. It is possible to overcome a tough background, discrimination and prejudice. That's the glory of America. We have to encourage people to do that, make those people the heroes and heroines. We have to stop enabling people who refuse to take responsibility for themselves.

                    There are some amazing black people out there - check out Daryl Davis - a black man who befriends and 'deconverts' Klansmen. More power to them. Get them supported by the government. Get them on TV, on talk shows, in the news. Ask people like that for their response when incidents happen.


                    Lastly, and importantly, - are you arguing for equality of outcome, or equality of opportunity? The former is impractical, largely impossible to attain in a society, and I think dangerous and damaging to that society. It disincentivises those who are above average from performing at a high level, and rewards those who are below average for 'being there' and no more. I suggest it is also unBiblical.

                    The latter is desirable, healthy, and mostly what we have. As well as being on average, low earners, we also have black people who are amoungst the highest earners - Jay Z, Beyonce, Oprah, LeBron James, Kevin Durant, Chris Paul, Lamar Jackson to name a few. We have black leaders in every walk of life. We had a black President. Not all these people came from 'privileged' backgrounds. This shows that it is possible for black people to 'make it', to achieve, to use their talents and skills and passion and drive to be among the very best in their chosen field. It is possible, but is it as 'easy' as it should be? Probably not.

                    But I submit that the answer is not more handouts that reward bad life choices, nor harsher laws on crime, nor 'leaders' who press the race button to get votes, nor a media that glorifies the worst of drug and criminal and irresponsible, selfish behaviour. It's not a society that jumps first of all, and to the exclusion of every other aspect, to 'race' whenever there's a problem. It's a society that treats everyone as people, just people; responsible, by and large, for their own life choices; and allows everyone to enjoy the consequences of their choices, both good and bad - with help and support for those who have stumbled or erred but are now heading the right way.


                    Originally posted by oxmimudd
                    These are just some of the realities that are a consequence of centuries of slavery followed by another century of oppression followed by 60 years of half-hearted efforts on the heals of the civil rights movement and amendment to correct half a millenia of oppression.

                    The time has come to do what is necessary to change this picture. It won't be easy, It will not be quick, and it won't be cheap. But it will never happen if those of us with the wealth and with the privilege refuse to recognize the problem and put forth real and sacrificial effort to change it.
                    ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                      So you're reduced to attacking straw men.

                      Okay then.
                      Nope, you need to review the definition of 'STRAWMAN'. my reply is an example of reductio ad absurdum
                      My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                      If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                      This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
                        So both these terms are imprecise and too easily used to attack the character and motives of someone else. 'You don't know it, but you are a cultural racist' - that discredits the person, but is vague enough to be impossible to refute. And, strangely, it seems to be applied only to people of a particular race....
                        It's a classic kafkatrap.

                        One very notable pathology is a form of argument that, reduced to essence, runs like this: “Your refusal to acknowledge that you are guilty of {sin,racism,sexism, homophobia,oppression…} confirms that you are guilty of {sin,racism,sexism, homophobia,oppression…}.” I’ve been presented with enough instances of this recently that I’ve decided that it needs a name. I call this general style of argument “kafkatrapping”, and the above the Model A kafkatrap. In this essay, I will show that the kafkatrap is a form of argument that is so fallacious and manipulative that those subjected to it are entitled to reject it based entirely on the form of the argument, without reference to whatever particular sin or thoughtcrime is being alleged. I will also attempt to show that kafkatrapping is so self-destructive to the causes that employ it that change activists should root it out of their own speech and thoughts.

                        My reference, of course, is to Franz Kafka’s “The Trial”, in which the protagonist Josef K. is accused of crimes the nature of which are never actually specified, and enmeshed in a process designed to degrade, humiliate, and destroy him whether or not he has in fact committed any crime at all. The only way out of the trap is for him to acquiesce in his own destruction; indeed, forcing him to that point of acquiescence and the collapse of his will to live as a free human being seems to be the only point of the process, if it has one at all.

                        This is almost exactly the way the kafkatrap operates in religious and political argument. Real crimes – actual transgressions against flesh-and-blood individuals – are generally not specified. The aim of the kafkatrap is to produce a kind of free-floating guilt in the subject, a conviction of sinfulness that can be manipulated by the operator to make the subject say and do things that are convenient to the operator’s personal, political, or religious goals. Ideally, the subject will then internalize these demands, and then become complicit in the kafkatrapping of others.

                        http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=2122

                        So in ox's case, "You're guilty because you're white, and if you deny it, that just proves your guilt."
                        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                        Than a fool in the eyes of God


                        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                          Nope, you need to review the definition of 'STRAWMAN'. my reply is an example of reductio ad absurdum
                          Ham-handed attempts at reductio ad absurdum often result in the straw man fallacy. Saying that things like fatherless homes and gangs are problems of the black community's own making does not logically lead to the conclusion that therefore, the enslavement of their ancestors is also their fault.
                          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                          Than a fool in the eyes of God


                          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            They won't be happy until we all do this:

                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                              Ham-handed attempts at reductio ad absurdum often result in the straw man fallacy. Saying that things like fatherless homes and gangs are problems of the black community's own making does not logically lead to the conclusion that therefore, the enslavement of their ancestors is also their fault.
                              I Didn't say it was equal. I said it was equally absurd.
                              My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                              If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                              This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                                It's a classic kafkatrap.

                                One very notable pathology is a form of argument that, reduced to essence, runs like this: “Your refusal to acknowledge that you are guilty of {sin,racism,sexism, homophobia,oppression…} confirms that you are guilty of {sin,racism,sexism, homophobia,oppression…}.” I’ve been presented with enough instances of this recently that I’ve decided that it needs a name. I call this general style of argument “kafkatrapping”, and the above the Model A kafkatrap. In this essay, I will show that the kafkatrap is a form of argument that is so fallacious and manipulative that those subjected to it are entitled to reject it based entirely on the form of the argument, without reference to whatever particular sin or thoughtcrime is being alleged. I will also attempt to show that kafkatrapping is so self-destructive to the causes that employ it that change activists should root it out of their own speech and thoughts.

                                My reference, of course, is to Franz Kafka’s “The Trial”, in which the protagonist Josef K. is accused of crimes the nature of which are never actually specified, and enmeshed in a process designed to degrade, humiliate, and destroy him whether or not he has in fact committed any crime at all. The only way out of the trap is for him to acquiesce in his own destruction; indeed, forcing him to that point of acquiescence and the collapse of his will to live as a free human being seems to be the only point of the process, if it has one at all.

                                This is almost exactly the way the kafkatrap operates in religious and political argument. Real crimes – actual transgressions against flesh-and-blood individuals – are generally not specified. The aim of the kafkatrap is to produce a kind of free-floating guilt in the subject, a conviction of sinfulness that can be manipulated by the operator to make the subject say and do things that are convenient to the operator’s personal, political, or religious goals. Ideally, the subject will then internalize these demands, and then become complicit in the kafkatrapping of others.

                                http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=2122

                                So in ox's case, "You're guilty because you're white, and if you deny it, that just proves your guilt."
                                Guilty and responsible are two different concepts. And I can bear responsibility without being guilty. In this case, we as the privileged class benefit from what has transpired before us, and black people suffer on account of it. We didn't create the problem - we are not 'guilty' of causing it - but we benefited from what the guilty did. We then, having benefited from the suffering of others, from what the quilty did, have a responsibility to try to make it right.

                                This is morality 101.
                                Last edited by oxmixmudd; 06-04-2020, 11:57 AM.
                                My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                                If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                                This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                                Comment

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                                Last Post One Bad Pig  
                                Started by whag, 03-26-2024, 04:38 PM
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                                Last Post Mountain Man  
                                Started by rogue06, 03-26-2024, 11:45 AM
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                                Last Post rogue06
                                by rogue06
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 09:21 AM
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                                Last Post Roy
                                by Roy
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 08:34 AM
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                                Last Post JimL
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