Floyd Tested Positive for Covid

[JonathanL]

Yes, this is exactly what MaxVel and MM are here to do and it is so painfully obvious that one wonders how they themselves can sleep at night. But I am afraid they believe they are fighting the good fight.

I can believe that someone could come to that conclusion while reading MM's posts because of his abrasive style. I disagree with it, but I understand why someone might come to that conclusion.


But anyone who seriously reads MaxVel's posts and comes away with the conclusion that he's simply here to "make the case these black victims deserve less of our compassion than it appears they should" is seriously delusional and should excuse themselves from the discussion because they're clearly unable to contribute anything valuable to the discussion.

[oxmixmudd]

I can believe that someone could come to that conclusion while reading MM's posts because of his abrasive style. I disagree with it, but I understand why someone might come to that conclusion.


But anyone who seriously reads MaxVel's posts and comes away with the conclusion that he's simply here to "make the case these black victims deserve less of our compassion than it appears they should" is seriously delusional and should excuse themselves from the discussion because they're clearly unable to contribute anything valuable to the discussion.

I would agree maxvel is not of the same Ilk as MM. He often tries to make real arguments that support what his views are. Often spending a good deal of time it would seem composing his response.

[Cow Poke]

The evidence is in the thread. The majority of the posts dealing with 'the facts' are targeting flaws in the victims. That is what I am responding to, that is what I am basing my criticism on. I've seen no extended discussion on the fact Floyd's killer had 18 incidents of excessive force on his record.

I have said over and over and over that I can't even CONCEIVE of any justification for Chauvin to do what he did. What further need be said?

But there is an entire thread devoted to the fact Floyd might have had covid, with a heavy dose of discussion on what drugs were in his system.

Wow, "an entire thread". Jim, this is a discussion board, and it's not intended to be completely one-sided. Perhaps you should start your own board where you totally control ALL content, and ONLY allow posts that support your thoughts, ideas and beliefs.

[Ronson]

The evidence is in the thread. The majority of the posts dealing with 'the facts' are targeting flaws in the victims. That is what I am responding to, that is what I am basing my criticism on. I've seen no extended discussion on the fact Floyd's killer had 18 incidents of excessive force on his record. But there is an entire thread devoted to the fact Floyd might have had covid, with a heavy dose of discussion on what drugs were in his system...

I started that thread because it was a news item that day. There was no news item about Chauvin's 18 incidents of excessive force. You could have started a thread about it, though.

[Cow Poke]

I started that thread because it was a news item that day. There was no news item about Chauvin's 18 incidents of excessive force. You could have started a thread about it, though.

I believe I had actually mentioned that earlier on, including the fact that there were others at the scene with complaints against them, and that at least SOME of these complaints had risen to the level of Internal Affairs assessing judgments against them.

I Am Not Afraid Of Facts.



(I had typed that as "I Am Not Afraid of FATS". )

[rogue06]

I believe I had actually mentioned that earlier on, including the fact that there were others at the scene with complaints against them, and that at least SOME of these complaints had risen to the level of Internal Affairs assessing judgments against them.

I Am Not Afraid Of Facts.



(I had typed that as "I Am Not Afraid of FATS". )

To be properly "with it" you should have picked #IAmNotAfraidOfFacts

[Cow Poke]

To be properly "with it" you should have picked #IAmNotAfraidOfFacts

Laughing, as I typed that, I actually thought I should hashtag it, because my daughter #HashtagsPracticallyEVERYTHING.

[MaxVel]

I would agree maxvel is not of the same Ilk as MM. He often tries to make real arguments that support what his views are. Often spending a good deal of time it would seem composing his response.

But anyone who seriously reads MaxVel's posts and comes away with the conclusion that he's simply here to "make the case these black victims deserve less of our compassion than it appears they should" is seriously delusional and should excuse themselves from the discussion because they're clearly unable to contribute anything valuable to the discussion.

Why thank you, guys.

[Cow Poke]

Why thank you, guys.

You're still a poopiehead.


(no, wait -- that's Sparko! )

[rogue06]

You're still a poopiehead.


(no, wait -- that's Sparko! )

You and Sparko are nincompoopieheads™

[MaxVel]

Can a black person be physically harmed by a white person, and it NOT be an instance of racism? Yes or No?

Sorry max, the pattern in these two cases is to focus on what was wrong with the victim. It has nothing to do with 'the facts'.

(1) Calling anyone 'a victim' BEFORE looking at all the facts, and when also shutting down discussion of the facts is simply prejudging things, and just as bad as denying clear instances of racism.

(2) You don't get to do this whole 'I'm on the side of right dance, and you guys who want to talk about the facts of the case are bad' routine when you were the one who jumped in the Arbery thread and in your first post attacked Littlejoe who had presented some of the then known facts. And then doubled down on that by accusing him of 'playing into racist stereotypes' - again without you addressing any of the facts.

This is a pattern with you - you do the same thing, repeatedly, in any thread that in any way involves Trump. You jump to your conclusion, and then attack the integrity and morality of anyone who doesn't immediately agree with your position. And here you are again, attacking people who want to look at all the facts and pick them over to see what conclusions they may lead to.

(3) The OP in this thread started with this:

Not that it makes any difference. He also had meth in his system.

and the rest of it was a citation of an NPR report on the matter. That's it. I read Ronsons's OP as raining something of interest, but not as blaming Floyd, or exonerating or justifying what happened... "Not that it makes any difference." This 'pattern' is in your mind.

(4) Nothing is stopping you from presenting any facts on either case that you think are relevant, either in these threads or in a new one of your creation. Stop attacking others for discussing the things they find interesting. You're simply mindreading in the most uncharitable and hostile way when you accuse people of being racism or supporting racism for talking about things that make you uncomfortable.

In Floyd's case there is nothing that could possibly be relevant.

I can't believe you wrote that with a straight face. How could anyone possibly know? That's a illogical a claim as 'There is no evidence for God.' It's part of the pattern of you trying to stifle any discussion of anything that might threaten the conclusions you've jumped to.

We have tapes showing that whatever was in his system, he did nothing significant or violent, and no one would survive being unable to breath for 8 minutes regardless their health. In Arbery's case, IF he had stolen something it might matter, but he didn't. The continuous focus on the victim rather than those committing the crimes tells the real story here. Where are the threads on the 18 past grievences against Floyd's killer?

(1) Feel free to start one.

(2) Argument from silence. Just because no-one has picked up on that particular point doesn't mean that no-one cares. We're not all as focused on this board, and on this topic as you are.

(3) Please quote all the posters here who have said that what happened to Floyd was OK.

The equal amount of focus and disgust at his aggressive use of an unsanctioned restraining move. Where are the endless speculations about the motives of those chasing down Arbery or post after post expressing disgust at their excess as they chased him, even hit him with their truck.

Source?

No max, this is all about making the case these black victims deserve less of our compassion than it appears they should.

(1) Assuming the conclusion ( that they are 'victims'). They may or may not be. They may be partly blameless and partly at fault. Regardless, as human beings they deserve our compassion and respect - which includes being honest about who they were, just as we should be honest about who the other people involved are.


For the record, from what I currently know, I agree that Floyd should not have died, and that at the very best, the officers were culpable and negligent.

I agree that the McMichaels were unwise (in pursuing to that extent and in taking a gun outside their truck). They may or may not have broken the law (although I doubt there can now be an objective trial, either way). I also think that the McMichaels were to at least some degree morally culpable. Was the problem worth the potential consequences of their actions? No.

That said, Arbery made some very poor choices. We don't know why, but they were not the smart thing to do.

AFAICT, there was no need for him to run off when he spotted the person on the phone as he left the property. That made him look guilty of something. Why not talk to the person on the phone and explain what he was doing? Why not wait for the police there?

Entering the property was not a good choice, especially alone and in a strange neighbourhood. If he wanted water, he could have asked someone, or even said that he was going to get water from the property before going in. He trespassed - a misdemeanor, but still a crime.

Why did he run up to the parked truck? That was some distance to cover, and he was in no immediate threat that I can see at the start of the video. It seems that he had other potential routes to try and escape - maybe cut through some properties to another street to try and lose them if he felt his life was in danger...?

Why did he try to grab the gun, in those circumstances. AFAICT it wasn't pointed at him, or raised, until he tried to grab it. Once he did that, AFAIK, legally he gave the person holding the gun the right to defend themselves. Regardless, it is always a dangerous thing to do to try and grab a gun off someone. There is a fair chance of getting shot doing that. I would think it wise to try that only when there are not other options, and your life is in immediate danger.

None of these questions can really be answered, as Arbery is dead. Gone. Forever. That's a tragedy.


But maybe good can come out of it.

As a non-American, watching on from far away, I feel like you've done this many times before. A nasty incident - cries for 'justice' - demonstrations and then riots that harm mostly the people who are already struggling. Closing of ears and minds, as people choose one or the other 'team' - white or black. Arguments and anger and emotion, and no-one really listening to each other. And in the end, nothing much really changes, because the real issue is how people think - on all 'sides'. Americans - to me - seem to read race into every interaction. It's no surprise then that they find 'race' in almost every interaction.

So how to change this dynamic?

My suggestions:

(1) The way you're thinking about things is not helping. You guys need to chuck all your preconceptions and theories and beliefs out - to one side.

And then start from first principles: What are the facts? What exactly causes those facts?

I think there are some uncomfortable answers to those questions for BOTH sides. And often the answers are not simple, but complex. And all people must take responsibility for their part in the race problems America faces. That means both black and white people. It's not just a 'white privilege, systemic racism' thing. It's not just a 'blacks are lazy thugs' thing either.

That would be a start. Telling people - anyone - to 'shut up' because they have the 'wrong' skin colour, or because their conclusions are threatening to your worldview is perpetuating the problem.

[Cow Poke]

You and Sparko are nincompoopieheads™

What you are is not fit to be printed on scroll nor terlet paper nor computer thingy. So THERE!

[Ronson]

The OP in this thread started with this: - and the rest of it was a citation of an NPR report on the matter. That's it. I read Ronsons's OP as raining something of interest, but not as blaming Floyd, or exonerating or justifying what happened... "Not that it makes any difference." This 'pattern' is in your mind.

Correct, thank you.

It was a news item of the day so I opened the thread. I thought it was of interest because if I was a defense attorney, I would bring up the covid part as a mitigating factor. That's about all.

[oxmixmudd]

Can a black person be physically harmed by a white person, and it NOT be an instance of racism? Yes or No?

Yes.

(1) Calling anyone 'a victim' BEFORE looking at all the facts, and when also shutting down discussion of the facts is simply prejudging things, and just as bad as denying clear instances of racism.

A person that is killed by another person except in self-defense is a victim. Both of these people were killed. Floyd was clearly NOT killed by the officer in self-defense - he is a victim from the get-go. We knew in both cases they were unarmed. Arbery was being chased and then was killed, so he also is a victim. The only real question with Arbery it was that if somehow the chase was justified and he then was a victim of an accidental shooting, or if the chase was unjustified - illegal - and he was a victim of a crime. And that was resolved a long time ago.

So I categorically reject the notion there needed to take any caution declaring them victims. We knew enough from the moment these threads started to make that declaration.

(2) You don't get to do this whole 'I'm on the side of right dance, and you guys who want to talk about the facts of the case are bad' routine when you were the one who jumped in the Arbery thread and in your first post attacked Littlejoe who had presented some of the then known facts. And then doubled down on that by accusing him of 'playing into racist stereotypes' - again without you addressing any of the facts.

We discussed this already. At the point I made the post the post I made was accurate.

This is a pattern with you - you do the same thing, repeatedly, in any thread that in any way involves Trump. You jump to your conclusion, and then attack the integrity and morality of anyone who doesn't immediately agree with your position. And here you are again, attacking people who want to look at all the facts and pick them over to see what conclusions they may lead to.

You may feel that is what I do. I don't see it that way. I would also remind you that blanket statements about what a person 'always' does are almost guaranteed to be incorrect. But just to point out a glaring error in your portrait: these threads on racism didn't involve Trump much at all.

(3) The OP in this thread started with this:



and the rest of it was a citation of an NPR report on the matter. That's it. I read Ronsons's OP as raining something of interest, but not as blaming Floyd, or exonerating or justifying what happened... "Not that it makes any difference." This 'pattern' is in your mind.

Sorry, but the mere existence of a thread focusing on denigrating elements related to floyd and the complete absence of a thread on Chauvin 18 previous excessive force violations is indeed part of that pattern. The pattern is focusing on what is wrong with the black victim and ignoring for the most part what is wrong with their killers.

(4) Nothing is stopping you from presenting any facts on either case that you think are relevant, either in these threads or in a new one of your creation. Stop attacking others for discussing the things they find interesting. You're simply mindreading in the most uncharitable and hostile way when you accuse people of being racism or supporting racism for talking about things that make you uncomfortable.

You act as if patterns of speech and the use of racist stereotypes carry no information.

I did present facts in the case that were being ignored, and facts that support the fact these conversations are following known racist patterns in how they discuss the facts of the case, the victims, and the killers. Perhaps you should stop attacking me for pointing out the uncomfortable truth that these patterns exist in these threads. Perhaps you and others should pay attention to what I'm saying and learn a bit about how their culture has made them unwitting allies to certain sorts of racist thought.

I mean, if we really, really want to stop racism, if we really really want to make things better, don't we need to know if there are things we are doing out of habit or culture that are perpetuating the problem rather than helping to conquer it?

See you're all bent out of shape because I point out what I see. Why not instead try to figure out if maybe what I'm seeing is true?

I can't believe you wrote that with a straight face. How could anyone possibly know? That's a illogical a claim as 'There is no evidence for God.' It's part of the pattern of you trying to stifle any discussion of anything that might threaten the conclusions you've jumped to.

When I wrote that we had multiple tapes of the event. We had audio and video in many different vantage points. The few moments we don't have a clear view of exactly what is happening don't allow for anything significant. He was not armed. He could not have offered any sort of threat in those missing seconds that could have justified the actions by Chauvin. I am not 'jumping to a conclusion' MaxVel. That is THE conclusion based on the facts of the case. You act as if we can't know anything for sure. In this case we could know there was nothing that could justify what Chauvin did. That is not jumping to a conclusion. That is simply the reality of the situation.

(1) Feel free to start one.

Misses the point. The point is that the existing threads and their content exhibit gross bias against the victims.

(2) Argument from silence. Just because no-one has picked up on that particular point doesn't mean that no-one cares. We're not all as focused on this board, and on this topic as you are.

Doesn't fly. People post and defend what they are interested in, what they care about. More importantly, they defend the facts they are invested in, either because they posted them, or because they support what they believe about a situation. These threads on Arbery and Floyd focus on facts that denigrate the victims and/or partially justify the killers. That is just a fact. And what it means is that is what those posting in the threads are interested in or invested in.

(3) Please quote all the posters here who have said that what happened to Floyd was OK.

No one said what happened to Floyd was ok. But I never said they did. What I pointed out is that even though there is no justification for his death, the conservative voices here have still gravitated to what was wrong with Floyd, not what was wrong with his killer. And, in the Floyd case, those same conservative voices have gravitated toward defending the idea that the deep seated anger and experience of the black community that has erupted in these protests is not real, is manufactured in some way.

Source?

https://www.wtva.com/content/news/571015632.html

is one, but there are many. This was presented by the prosecution 3 or 4 days ago.

(1) Assuming the conclusion ( that they are 'victims'). They may or may not be. They may be partly blameless and partly at fault. Regardless, as human beings they deserve our compassion and respect - which includes being honest about who they were, just as we should be honest about who the other people involved are.

No - there is no doubt they are victims. At one point it was possible to wander if Arbery had somehow contributed to the situation that results in his death, but that time has long since passed. For you to claim there is some doubt calls your understanding of the facts or your reasoning about them into question.

For the record, from what I currently know, I agree that Floyd should not have died, and that at the very best, the officers were culpable and negligent.

It is hard to be impressed by your concession of the obvious. I would be more impressed if you were truly disgusted and outraged by their actions. That would be the least response what happened should engender in you. What happened to Floyd was full on murder on camera. The only question is how intentional was the killer.

I agree that the McMichaels were unwise (in pursuing to that extent and in taking a gun outside their truck). They may or may not have broken the law (although I doubt there can now be an objective trial, either way). I also think that the McMichaels were to at least some degree morally culpable. Was the problem worth the potential consequences of their actions? No.

So understated I have a hard time responding to it with respect.

That said, Arbery made some very poor choices. We don't know why, but they were not the smart thing to do.

And that is irrelevant - and heartless max. Let's see, MM wanted me to give some grace to the killer over the use of the "N" word. What was it he said, something about you just don't know what you might say under duress? Well, here was a man being chased for an extended period, he was blocked, he was hit by the truck, and two of the men were armed. He feared for his life. Do you know what your fight or flight response will be if faced with a mortal threat? I don't know what mine would be. But for Arbery it was fight.

AFAICT, there was no need for him to run off when he spotted the person on the phone as he left the property. That made him look guilty of something. Why not talk to the person on the phone and explain what he was doing? Why not wait for the police there?

Entering the property was not a good choice, especially alone and in a strange neighbourhood. If he wanted water, he could have asked someone, or even said that he was going to get water from the property before going in. He trespassed - a misdemeanor, but still a crime.

Why did he run up to the parked truck? That was some distance to cover, and he was in no immediate threat that I can see at the start of the video. It seems that he had other potential routes to try and escape - maybe cut through some properties to another street to try and lose them if he felt his life was in danger...?

Why did he try to grab the gun, in those circumstances. AFAICT it wasn't pointed at him, or raised, until he tried to grab it. Once he did that, AFAIK, legally he gave the person holding the gun the right to defend themselves. Regardless, it is always a dangerous thing to do to try and grab a gun off someone. There is a fair chance of getting shot doing that. I would think it wise to try that only when there are not other options, and your life is in immediate danger.

None of these questions can really be answered, as Arbery is dead. Gone. Forever. That's a tragedy.

Wow. I can't even imagine thinking like this Max. He was being chased by men and in a situation where I would have believed my life was in danger. How can I find any fault with what he did? He did what he believed he had to do to get away. It is absolutely and completely absurd to criticize him for what he did. He did what he had to. We know he had been told that if he ever found himself in a situation were he believed he would die if he did not fight - to fight. Well, that is what he did. The people on flight 93 chose to fight too, and they also failed and died as well. Are you going to judge what they did and try to figure out if it was stupid or not?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...ain%20control.

But maybe good can come out of it.

As a non-American, watching on from far away, I feel like you've done this many times before. A nasty incident - cries for 'justice' - demonstrations and then riots that harm mostly the people who are already struggling. Closing of ears and minds, as people choose one or the other 'team' - white or black. Arguments and anger and emotion, and no-one really listening to each other. And in the end, nothing much really changes, because the real issue is how people think - on all 'sides'. Americans - to me - seem to read race into every interaction. It's no surprise then that they find 'race' in almost every interaction.

So how to change this dynamic?

My suggestions:

(1) The way you're thinking about things is not helping. You guys need to chuck all your preconceptions and theories and beliefs out - to one side.

And then start from first principles: What are the facts? What exactly causes those facts?

I think there are some uncomfortable answers to those questions for BOTH sides. And often the answers are not simple, but complex. And all people must take responsibility for their part in the race problems America faces. That means both black and white people. It's not just a 'white privilege, systemic racism' thing. It's not just a 'blacks are lazy thugs' thing either.

That would be a start. Telling people - anyone - to 'shut up' because they have the 'wrong' skin colour, or because their conclusions are threatening to your worldview is perpetuating the problem.

hmm - I and trying to figure out how to get you to realize that as long as a people is oppressed, it is absurd to try to focus their attention on what they are doing wrong to make their oppressors unwilling to change their oppressive ways.

Should we have expected our ancestors to understand that as long as they are going to throw tea into the harbor is quite unlikely King George will be likely to lower their taxes? Should we have just kept waiting and waiting for King George to suddenly just decide to lower the taxes for us? Should we have focused on how violence won't solve any problem, that if we just work a little harder we can make up for the income lost to the taxes? What would the colonists have thought if King George sent a writ that emphasized all the wars Britain had fought on their behalf, and why they should accept his tax, and if they'll just realize there are good reasons for the tax, they'll discover his taxes are not so bad after all?

https://www.history.com/topics/ameri...ston-tea-party

This country, the US, was built on a rebellion against tyranny from Britain. Well, a different sort of Tyranny exist inside this country today. Black people in America experience an oppression with a very, very long historical heritage. But it is oppression nonetheless. And in our current circumstances, they have waited 50+ long years for that oppression to lift, but it has not yet lifted. We need to change this situation. It will not be easy. It will not be quick. But the consequence of not changing it is probably increased racial tension and violence. Events like those we've seen with Arbery, Floyd, and Taylor keep happening, and they must stop. And it is up to those holding the power, those not oppressed, to take the steps necessary to enabling a solution.

[Ronson]

Sorry, but the mere existence of a thread focusing on denigrating elements related to floyd and the complete absence of a thread on Chauvin 18 previous excessive force violations is indeed part of that pattern. The pattern is focusing on what is wrong with the black victim and ignoring for the most part what is wrong with their killers.

Wrong. You are having trouble with confirmation bias. I've said several times here that (1) this was a news item, and (2) it didn't matter regarding Chauvin's crime, and (3) it was noteworthy because of the covid. Covid can make it difficult to breathe, so a defense attorney might zero in on that. That's the whole point.

Should I confirm racism on your part in the fact that you haven't started a thread regarding Chauvin's 18 previous violations? Using your logic, that should be my conclusion.