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Thread: Why Public Health Experts Have Lost All Credibility...

  1. #31
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DivineOb View Post

    When I see a group of people all wearing masks, I have to smile and think, "years from now, people are going to look back at those pictures and think --- MAN, what a bunch of dummies".


    Which I'm having a hard time interpreting in light of this discussion. It sounds like you believe pretty strongly that masks don't help. Is that what you believe?
    Let's deal with that, first.
    Today I stopped at Burger King for lunch.
    The young lady attempting to take my order spoke "some" English, was wearing a mask, was behind a plexiglass screen.... does that sound reasonable?
    Consequently, my order was nothing like I requested - I couldn't hear, let alone, understand her.

    I see, many times, two people riding along together in a vehicle, both wearing masks, appearing to be husband and wife. Do they wear masks when they go to bed?

    We have a lady in our church who is going through chemo -- her immune system is suppressed, so she wears a mask and we all respect that greatly.

    Then there's the whole thing about the "6 feet" -- if that works, why do we need masks? And if masks work, why do we need 6 feet?
    And why are both WHO and CDC downplaying the use of masks?

    I think, in many cases, people have just gone stark raving mad out of fear. I choose not to live in fear, but I DO believe in taking reasonable precautions.
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by DivineOb View Post
    1) I don't understand why the WHO still has that guidance.
    It's not just WHO - the article cited CDC, as well.

    Ox said elsewhere they gave different information but that hardly excuses leaving that outdated advice up. ....
    How do you know it's outdated? Who, in their right mind, would post a bullet-point "FAQ" type advisory at the top, then bury conflicting information deeper down? Is this not IMPORTANT information? Are they incompetent?

    I think you're making my point --- the public officials have lost their credibility.
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

  4. #33
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    AND, there's this...

    Mask mystery: Why are U.S. officials dismissive of protective covering?

    [box]In recent weeks, facing public uncertainty about coronavirus and a severe domestic shortage of medical-grade face masks, top Trump administration officials offered adamant warnings against widespread use of masks, going so far as to argue that members of the general public were more likely to catch the virus if they used them.

    "You can increase your risk of getting it by wearing a mask if you are not a health care provider," Surgeon General Jerome Adams said during an appearance on “Fox & Friends” earlier this month.

    “If it's not fitted right you’re going to fumble with it,” warned Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar late last month, when asked about N95 respirator masks.

    "Right now, in the United States, people should not be walking around with masks," said Dr. Anthony Fauci, an immunologist and a public face of the White House Coronavirus Task Force, on CBS’ “60 Minutes” earlier this month. He, like the others, suggested that masks could put users at risk by causing them to touch their face more often.

    But as the crisis has played out around the world and intensified in parts of the U.S., reasons have emerged to doubt the wisdom of this guidance, which ranks among the most forceful warnings against mask use by national health authorities anywhere and does not differentiate between medical-grade masks and simple cloth coverings. A number of societies where mask use is more widespread, and where mask shortages have been less severe, seem to have had more success containing the virus. Now, some health experts, who say there is no evidence for the claim that masks increase users’ risk of catching the virus, are calling for more widespread use of face coverings in the U.S.

    “Guidance needs to change and needs to be clear that these nonmedical, nonsurgical masks are beneficial to the general public and should be worn when outside of the home," said Robert Hecht, a professor of epidemiology at the Yale School of Public Health.

    The increasing calls for more use of masks raise the question of whether authorities’ recommendations were based on genuine concerns about spreading Covid-19 or instead motivated by a desire to prevent a run on limited supplies of masks: "Seriously people — STOP BUYING MASKS!” tweeted Adams in late February. "They are NOT effective in preventing general public from catching #Coronavirus but if healthcare providers can’t get them to care for sick patients, it puts them and our communities at risk!”
    .....
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

  5. #34
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    I see, many times, two people riding along together in a vehicle, both wearing masks, appearing to be husband and wife. Do they wear masks when they go to bed?
    Perhaps they are headed somewhere and put on the masks beforehand? Perhaps they don't take them off until they get home and can put them directly in the garbage and wash their hands afterward (which is what is medically advised)? This really seems like a silly example.

    I'm sorry if I'm reading you wrong but (not just this post) I really get the vibe that you don't like face masks and think they're silly when used by the general public (meaning everyone, not just those in a 'risk category'). The messaging really wasn't mixed (at least not among the voices I listen to e.g. Dr. Gena Grayson or the societal wisdom of Hong Kong / Taiwan) that you would accept that there are benefits to the general population wearing masks. The Czech Republic also learned from Hong Kong and haven't suffered the disaster of many much wealthier countries (I proudly state as I note my 3 / 32nd's Czech blood).

    As far as I am aware the CDC changed their guidance once evidence of asymptomatic spread among Americans was available. I don't know why it took getting to that point (I can speculate but I'm not a pathologist). I do know that the vast majority of messaging opposed to masks, testing, etc. is due to the Trump administration. It plays into such a cheap stereotype to blame Trump for everything but Everything Trump Touches Dies is a law for a reason. Even the Surgeon General, who was well regarded before accepting his post, has fallen victim to #ETTD (I remember back when he sent his tweets in early February absolutely minimizing the danger of COVID45 and how he was roundly criticized by voices who have since been proven correct. And the worst part is that we already knew of the dangers in early February based on what had already happened in PRC!).

    It is a tragedy of the highest order that bad information was communicated in a counterproductive manner. I can absolutely guarantee that Biden's first term will bring a "9/11 commission"-style commission to understand our country's Coronavirus failings. You will get all your answers then.
    Last edited by DivineOb; 06-04-2020 at 07:42 PM.

  6. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by DivineOb View Post
    Perhaps they are headed somewhere and put on the masks beforehand? Perhaps they don't take them off until they get home and can put them directly in the garbage and wash their hands afterward (which is what is medically advised)? This really seems like a silly example.
    Quite honestly, I think your attempt at explaining this silliness is even sillier.

    I'm sorry if I'm reading you wrong but (not just this post) I really get the vibe that you don't like face masks and think they're silly when used by the general public (meaning everyone, not just those in a 'risk category'). The messaging really wasn't mixed (at least not among the voices I listen to e.g. Dr. Gena Grayson or the societal wisdom of Hong Kong / Taiwan) that you would accept that there are benefits to the general population wearing masks. The Czech Republic also learned from Hong Kong and haven't suffered the disaster of many much wealthier countries (I proudly state as I note my 3 / 32nd's Czech blood).
    So, the messaging is not mixed as long as you listen to the right people, eh? How do you know who the right people are. And what's SILLY is the inconsistent and unreasonable way public figures - like news reporters - use them. TEN FEET away from everybody else, they wear a mask to report the news, and every person who is hard of hearing and relies on reading lips and faces is inconvenienced. It's like "hey, look at ME, I'm wearing a mask, so I'm COMPLYING". It's stupid.

    As far as I am aware the CDC changed their guidance once evidence of asymptomatic spread among Americans was available. I don't know why it took getting to that point (I can speculate but I'm not a pathologist). I do know that the vast majority of messaging opposed to masks, testing, etc. is due to the Trump administration. It plays into such a cheap stereotype to blame Trump for everything but Everything Trump Touches Dies is a law for a reason. Even the Surgeon General, who was well regarded before accepting his post, has fallen victim to #ETTD (I remember back when he sent his tweets in early February absolutely minimizing the danger of COVID45 and how he was roundly criticized by voices who have since been proven correct. And the worst part is that we already knew of the dangers in early February based on what had already happened in PRC!).

    It is a tragedy of the highest order that bad information was communicated in a counterproductive manner. I can absolutely guarantee that Biden's first term will bring a "9/11 commission"-style commission to understand our country's Coronavirus failings. You will get all your answers then.
    Maybe he'll call WHO and tell them what to put on their website?
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

  7. #36
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Quite honestly, I think your attempt at explaining this silliness is even sillier.
    What's the issue you take with what I said? You don't find that plausible? I don't get it.


    So, the messaging is not mixed as long as you listen to the right people, eh? How do you know who the right people are.
    Theoretically the right people is our government. As I've said historical experience has shown that having the general population wear masks is vital to preventing the spread of diseases like COVID45. My wife lived in HK back when SARS hit. She has been asking me for *months* why Americans don't wear masks. None of this is new information.

    We need to know why our government gave bad advice. I can't tell you what I think is the best explanation for the information in front of us without bringing Trump into the picture. I simply cannot think of an alternate explanation for why such obviously poor decisions were made by people who know more than me (Dr. Dena Grayson is well known due to her Ebola vaccine work. The things she was saying on Twitter and the coverage from BNO Newsdesk were available to everyone and widely known.)

    1) The Trump administration pushed the idea that COVID45 was not a concern as long as they possibly could. All the proof you need is in this thread where you can see MM and others take he bait every single time, even against the perspectives offered from Christians on this board from outside this country. This line was pushed by those underneath Trump to avoid his wrath. Like I said, the Surgeon General had a good reputation (as did Dr. Birx) and now they're victims number whatever of #ETTD.
    2) The Trump administration failed to ensure an adequate supply of PPE, ensuring a lack of supply for the general population and even insufficient supply for front line medical workers.
    3) Largely due to 1), and later due to rationing from 2), mask usage was discouraged. To avoid placing the blame on Trump poorly reasoned arguments were advanced which could not be easily clawed back.
    4) I think Fauci believed that the best thing to do was go along with Trump where he had to in order to make the best he could of a bad situation.

    Consider this tweet from Dr. Grayson on January 26th warning of asymptomatic person-to-person spread. The alleged reason for finally advising people to wear masks in early April was because asymptomatic person-to-person spread was finally observed in the USA. But we already knew that was a thing 2+ months earlier. And we knew about Coronavirus back in November of 2019 from our intelligence services.


    Now that the #coronavirus has spread far outside the epicenter of #Wuhan—along with its purported ability to spread from asymptomatic people—prepare for the number of infections and deaths to escalate rapidly over the coming days and weeks.

    This is just the beginning.

    #2019nCoV


    I'm happy to hear which of this you take issue with.

    Now, I need to be a little forthcoming. In those early days I saw this news coming from Dr. Grayson and BNO Newsdesk (who has had by far the best coverage of *everyone* by far) and trying to make sense of why people weren't taking things seriously over here. I thought maybe she was being hyperbolic or something. I did realize that she wasn't exaggerating well in advance of things really exploding over here though once Europe starting getting hit.


    And what's SILLY is the inconsistent and unreasonable way public figures - like news reporters - use them. TEN FEET away from everybody else, they wear a mask to report the news, and every person who is hard of hearing and relies on reading lips and faces is inconvenienced. It's like "hey, look at ME, I'm wearing a mask, so I'm COMPLYING". It's stupid.
    I don't watch the news but the clips I see usually shows the news person take off their mask before speaking to the camera. There are multiple good reasons for people who are on the TV to make a point of being seen wearing a mask. One of those is, now that we know they help, it helps to remind people and create social pressure *to do the right (or at least medically advised) thing*.


    Maybe he'll call WHO and tell them what to put on their website?
    I think that would be great. I don't know why the WHO gave bad advice. I don't think it's as relevant since the first line of defense is supposed to be our own health services. And I remember seeing a video from *way back* at the beginning of one of the head guys at the WHO discussing how masks are effective, how to put them on safely, etc. I really doubt I could find it again because this was way at the beginning. In fact, when I later heard that masks don't help I assumed that new information had come to light showing them to be ineffective for this particular illness.
    Last edited by DivineOb; 06-04-2020 at 10:14 PM.

  8. #37
    tWebber Whateverman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Then there's the whole thing about the "6 feet" -- if that works, why do we need masks?
    To protect the people around you, from you.

    There's documented evidence that the virus can travel more than 12 feet after a sneeze; a mask reduces the likelihood of that happening.

    EDIT: the context around Fauci's statement that people didn't need to go walking around with a mask was the need to keep the masks for healthcare workers; during the initial phase of the outbreak here. Once the fear that the pandemic would overwhelm hospitals died down, he began to tell people to wear a mask.
    Last edited by Whateverman; 06-05-2020 at 01:15 AM.

  9. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whateverman View Post
    To protect the people around you, from you.
    Yes, yes, yes, I'm aware of all that... but if I'm wearing a mask....

    There's documented evidence that the virus can travel more than 12 feet after a sneeze; a mask reduces the likelihood of that happening.
    How far would a sneeze travel if you're wearing a mask?

    EDIT: the context around Fauci's statement that people didn't need to go walking around with a mask was the need to keep the masks for healthcare workers; during the initial phase of the outbreak here. Once the fear that the pandemic would overwhelm hospitals died down, he began to tell people to wear a mask.
    Yes, I'm aware that's the claim -- so why is CDC and WHO still minimizing the need for everybody wearing masks?
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by DivineOb View Post
    What's the issue you take with what I said? You don't find that plausible? I don't get it.
    I don't find it plausible at all. I know these people.

    Theoretically the right people is our government.
    Why? When did they become medical experts? Aside from the few people in Congress who are actually medical doctors...

    As I've said historical experience has shown that having the general population wear masks is vital to preventing the spread of diseases like COVID45. My wife lived in HK back when SARS hit. She has been asking me for *months* why Americans don't wear masks. None of this is new information.

    We need to know why our government gave bad advice. I can't tell you what I think is the best explanation for the information in front of us without bringing Trump into the picture. I simply cannot think of an alternate explanation for why such obviously poor decisions were made by people who know more than me (Dr. Dena Grayson is well known due to her Ebola vaccine work. The things she was saying on Twitter and the coverage from BNO Newsdesk were available to everyone and widely known.)
    I got nothing.

    1) The Trump administration pushed the idea that COVID45 was not a concern as long as they possibly could. All the proof you need is in this thread where you can see MM and others take he bait every single time, even against the perspectives offered from Christians on this board from outside this country. This line was pushed by those underneath Trump to avoid his wrath. Like I said, the Surgeon General had a good reputation (as did Dr. Birx) and now they're victims number whatever of #ETTD.
    2) The Trump administration failed to ensure an adequate supply of PPE, ensuring a lack of supply for the general population and even insufficient supply for front line medical workers.
    3) Largely due to 1), and later due to rationing from 2), mask usage was discouraged. To avoid placing the blame on Trump poorly reasoned arguments were advanced which could not be easily clawed back.
    4) I think Fauci believed that the best thing to do was go along with Trump where he had to in order to make the best he could of a bad situation.
    So, wait... Fauci was a sellout? So, he can't be trusted? Think about what you're saying.

    Consider this tweet from Dr. Grayson on January 26th warning of asymptomatic person-to-person spread. The alleged reason for finally advising people to wear masks in early April was because asymptomatic person-to-person spread was finally observed in the USA. But we already knew that was a thing 2+ months earlier. And we knew about Coronavirus back in November of 2019 from our intelligence services.


    Now that the #coronavirus has spread far outside the epicenter of #Wuhan—along with its purported ability to spread from asymptomatic people—prepare for the number of infections and deaths to escalate rapidly over the coming days and weeks.

    This is just the beginning.

    #2019nCoV


    I'm happy to hear which of this you take issue with.
    You can cite sources that say "do X" or "don't do Y" - I can cite sources that say "do Z", "don't do W". Mixed messaging.

    Now, I need to be a little forthcoming.
    I tend to try to stay in that condition.

    In those early days I saw this news coming from Dr. Grayson and BNO Newsdesk (who has had by far the best coverage of *everyone* by far) and trying to make sense of why people weren't taking things seriously over here. I thought maybe she was being hyperbolic or something. I did realize that she wasn't exaggerating well in advance of things really exploding over here though once Europe starting getting hit.

    I don't watch the news but the clips I see usually shows the news person take off their mask before speaking to the camera.
    Sometimes that happens - often it does not.

    There are multiple good reasons for people who are on the TV to make a point of being seen wearing a mask. One of those is, now that we know they help, it helps to remind people and create social pressure *to do the right (or at least medically advised) thing*.
    And, again, do we just ignore WHO? Or are they not a legitimate source of medical information?

    I think that would be great. I don't know why the WHO gave bad advice.
    Not "gave" - still giving.

    I don't think it's as relevant since the first line of defense is supposed to be our own health services. And I remember seeing a video from *way back* at the beginning of one of the head guys at the WHO discussing how masks are effective, how to put them on safely, etc. I really doubt I could find it again because this was way at the beginning. In fact, when I later heard that masks don't help I assumed that new information had come to light showing them to be ineffective for this particular illness.
    There's a bit of historical revisionism going on here (not you) with people claiming "I've said that all along" when they had a different message 'back then'. I linked to the CBS News cite where they had a hyperlink to another of their cites that didn't say at all what they said it was going to say. I think the changed the second cite without changing the introductory link.

    It gets back to - mixed messaging. And "blame Trump" is not the only reason.
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

  11. #40
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    That letter (from the OP) is ridiculous. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Jyf...3ys1b7K1A/view



    It basically says that complaining against the Michigan protestors because of COVID-19 was fine, but when it comes to black protestors we should make an exception because protesting against police brutality is more vital to black health than COVID-19 precautions because of police brutality killing blacks.

    I can guarantee you that there will be a lot more black deaths due to COVID-19 this year than will be from police brutality.

  12. Amen RumTumTugger amen'd this post.

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