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Why Public Health Experts Have Lost All Credibility...

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    Excellent, thanks. Pretty sure there were other officials saying the same thing, but that works. And, she's right.
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      How far would a sneeze travel if you're wearing a mask?
      It still travels some distance; I've heard about half as far as if you hadn't worn a mask. However, some of whatever you expelled is caught and held.

      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      Yes, I'm aware that's the claim -- so why is CDC and WHO still minimizing the need for everybody wearing masks?
      I'm just answering the question as to why masks are effective, as well as why Fauci at one point said people don't have to walk around wearing one.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
        I don't find it plausible at all. I know these people.
        Then ask them why they did it. I must have missed that you knew them.


        Why? When did they become medical experts? Aside from the few people in Congress who are actually medical doctors...
        I'm talking about the CDC, Surgeon General, whatever departments are dedicated to preventing disease in this country.


        So, wait... Fauci was a sellout? So, he can't be trusted? Think about what you're saying.
        I'm included Fauci in the list of people who has given "mixed messaging" on important issues in this outbreak. He certainly knew that masks have been effective in the past. He certainly knew about all the stuff I was seeing on Twitter. Yet he didn't come blasting out with the truth.

        But why does it have to be totally black and white? I believe he's a white hat but had to go "undercover" (like Mattis, like Rosenstein etc.). It doesn't mean he is permanently tainted but the bad advice he gave which he should have known was bad advice needs to be understood and explained.


        You can cite sources that say "do X" or "don't do Y" - I can cite sources that say "do Z", "don't do W". Mixed messaging.
        Right. So do you think there was "mixed messaging" because the science was unclear or for other reasons?

        I feel like I still don't get your point here. I don't dispute that there was mixed messaging on the mask issue to an extent. Is that all you want to point out?


        And, again, do we just ignore WHO? Or are they not a legitimate source of medical information?
        On this issue they are giving wrong advice. I don't know why it is happening. I want to separate out sources of information which are part of our government from those which are not. I have much more confidence I understand why our own government gave mixed messaging.


        There's a bit of historical revisionism going on here (not you) with people claiming "I've said that all along" when they had a different message 'back then'. I linked to the CBS News cite where they had a hyperlink to another of their cites that didn't say at all what they said it was going to say. I think the changed the second cite without changing the introductory link.

        It gets back to - mixed messaging. And "blame Trump" is not the only reason.
        Ok, so what do *you* think is the reason for mixed messaging?

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by DivineOb View Post
          Then ask them why they did it. I must have missed that you knew them.
          OK, to be more precise, I know who they are. It's not at all unusual to see things like that. It's kind of a running joke. In our area, we have VERY little COVID trouble, and what we have is almost exclusively in one nursing home and two other institutions.

          I'm talking about the CDC, Surgeon General, whatever departments are dedicated to preventing disease in this country.
          OK, this is getting nowhere, because if you talk about "government", then it's "TRUMP!!!!! It's HIS Surgeon General, and....

          I'm included Fauci in the list of people who has given "mixed messaging" on important issues in this outbreak. He certainly knew that masks have been effective in the past. He certainly knew about all the stuff I was seeing on Twitter. Yet he didn't come blasting out with the truth.

          But why does it have to be totally black and white? I believe he's a white hat but had to go "undercover" (like Mattis, like Rosenstein etc.). It doesn't mean he is permanently tainted but the bad advice he gave which he should have known was bad advice needs to be understood and explained.
          People are tired of the fearmongering. People are suspicious of government. People are suspicious of news outlets. The internet is full of conspiracy theories and misinformation.

          SOMEBODY needs to be blowing a clear trumpet, and the messaging needs to be unified.

          Right. So do you think there was "mixed messaging" because the science was unclear or for other reasons?
          Yes.

          I feel like I still don't get your point here. I don't dispute that there was mixed messaging on the mask issue to an extent. Is that all you want to point out?
          That, along with the fact that mixed messaging has consequences, and you don't always get a second chance to get it right.

          On this issue they are giving wrong advice. I don't know why it is happening. I want to separate out sources of information which are part of our government from those which are not. I have much more confidence I understand why our own government gave mixed messaging.
          OK, so you will "separate out" sources A, B and C, and another guy will "separate out" sources D, F and W, and another guy....

          Ok, so what do *you* think is the reason for mixed messaging?
          That would probably be a whole new thread.
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Whateverman View Post
            It still travels some distance; I've heard about half as far as if you hadn't worn a mask. However, some of whatever you expelled is caught and held.
            Got a source for that?

            I'm just answering the question as to why masks are effective, as well as why Fauci at one point said people don't have to walk around wearing one.
            Whatever, man!

            thanks
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              OK, this is getting nowhere, because if you talk about "government", then it's "TRUMP!!!!! It's HIS Surgeon General, and....

              People are tired of the fearmongering. People are suspicious of government. People are suspicious of news outlets. The internet is full of conspiracy theories and misinformation.

              SOMEBODY needs to be blowing a clear trumpet, and the messaging needs to be unified.
              I agree. That's why we need a thorough investigation and those who gave advice contrary to settled science need to be called to account. But there must be a reason (or multiple reasons) and those reasons don't necessarily mean we should stop trusting scientists and medical professionals.

              There are sources of evil out there (which you'd agree with me are evil). They benefit from an assault of truth and with people giving up on being able to know what the truth is (e.g. listen to Gary Kasparov). We need to hold to the concept that the truth is knowable or America is lost. When someone communicates something which isn't true we need to understand why.


              Yes.
              So you *don't* think the science is settled on this? That's a bold claim. In what countries, at this point, is mask wearing not advised for the general public? Even if the initial messaging from this country was wrong practically every voice, at this point, agrees with the (already settled) science that masks help.


              That, along with the fact that mixed messaging has consequences, and you don't always get a second chance to get it right.
              I agree. So the reason *matters* because the science was never in doubt. People who knew better gave advice contrary to settled science. There must be a reason beyond "the truth is unknowable." And the fault obviously rests with the President (whoever is President) because it's the President's job to make sure that the right information is communicated to the People.


              OK, so you will "separate out" sources A, B and C, and another guy will "separate out" sources D, F and W, and another guy....
              Smart people will go to where the science indicates. It is the duty of our government to communicate the science in a way which is easily digested by the average American. That did not happen and we need to understand why. The answer isn't "the truth is unknowable."

              Why are you unsatisfied with the explanation that the reason for the mixed messaging *in this instance* is due to a failure of leadership from this administration to accurately determine and communicate the truth? Again, the science was never in doubt.

              Incidentally, the WHO has now (today) updated their mask guidance. I have no idea why it took so long. Certainly a transparent investigation is warranted.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by DivineOb View Post
                Incidentally, the WHO has now (today) updated their mask guidance.
                Because I called them and told them they were bloomin' idiots, and they needed to get their story straight.



                Look, I get kinda tired of these backandforth titfortat posts, so how bout we make final arguments?

                When messaging is confused out of the box, I tend to be suspicious of further messaging.

                I plan on using reasonable care, and I know you don't get this --- but I am not going to live my life in fear.

                I'm an old fart.
                I might get Covid.
                I'm a tough old fart, so I'll probably live through it.
                If I don't, I'll go to Heaven sooner.

                Because I care about other people, I'll respect their wishes as far as their own personal safety.

                Some of the biggest proponents of masks are the same doom-and-gloomers who seem obsessed with global warming and THE WHOLE US IS RACIST and fearmongering in general.
                When the NUTTERS are really pushing for something, those of us who are completely and totally sane and rational have to wonder.


                PS, if there's something specific you'd like answered, I enjoy the interchange.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by DivineOb View Post
                  Incidentally, the WHO has now (today) updated their mask guidance...
                  OK, so read this crap from these bureaucratic MOE-Rons (thanks Reba)

                  Community settings

                  Studies of influenza, influenza-like illness, and human coronaviruses provide evidence that the use of a medical mask can prevent the spread of infectious droplets from an infected person to someone else and potential contamination of the environment by these droplets.13 There is limited evidence that wearing a medical mask by healthy individuals in the households or among contacts of a sick patient, or among attendees of mass gatherings may be beneficial as a preventive measure.14-23 However, there is currently no evidence that wearing a mask (whether medical or other types) by healthy persons in the wider community setting, including universal community masking, can prevent them from infection with respiratory viruses, including COVID-19.


                  And....

                  Medical masks should be reserved for health care workers.

                  The use of medical masks in the community may create a false sense of security, with neglect of other essential measures, such as hand hygiene practices and physical distancing, and may lead to touching the face under the masks and under the eyes, result in unnecessary costs, and take masks away from those in health care who need them most, especially when masks are in short supply.


                  This is NOW (today).
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    OK, so read this crap from these bureaucratic MOE-Rons (thanks Reba)

                    Community settings

                    Studies of influenza, influenza-like illness, and human coronaviruses provide evidence that the use of a medical mask can prevent the spread of infectious droplets from an infected person to someone else and potential contamination of the environment by these droplets.13 There is limited evidence that wearing a medical mask by healthy individuals in the households or among contacts of a sick patient, or among attendees of mass gatherings may be beneficial as a preventive measure.14-23 However, there is currently no evidence that wearing a mask (whether medical or other types) by healthy persons in the wider community setting, including universal community masking, can prevent them from infection with respiratory viruses, including COVID-19.


                    And....

                    Medical masks should be reserved for health care workers.

                    The use of medical masks in the community may create a false sense of security, with neglect of other essential measures, such as hand hygiene practices and physical distancing, and may lead to touching the face under the masks and under the eyes, result in unnecessary costs, and take masks away from those in health care who need them most, especially when masks are in short supply.


                    This is NOW (today).
                    I was going based on the reporting of their announcement.


                    People over 60 or with health issues should wear a medical-grade mask when they are out and cannot socially distance, according to new guidance from the World Health Organization, while all others should wear a three-layer fabric mask.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by DivineOb View Post
                      I was going based on the reporting of their announcement.


                      People over 60 or with health issues should wear a medical-grade mask when they are out and cannot socially distance, according to new guidance from the World Health Organization, while all others should wear a three-layer fabric mask.
                      So, why can't they get their messaging straight? I actually opened and read the PDF they reference. Why not have a major header, THEN the extended body of information. MOE-rons! (not you)

                      And why is the "reporting" so screwy?
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        So, why can't they get their messaging straight? I actually opened and read the PDF they reference. Why not have a major header, THEN the extended body of information. MOE-rons! (not you)

                        And why is the "reporting" so screwy?
                        I don't know. Perhaps we should have a transparent investigation.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by DivineOb View Post
                          I don't know. Perhaps we should have a transparent investigation.
                          So, WHO do you nominate to be the watchers of the watchers?

                          (see what I did there? )
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by DivineOb View Post
                            I was going based on the reporting of their announcement.


                            People over 60 or with health issues should wear a medical-grade mask when they are out and cannot socially distance, according to new guidance from the World Health Organization, while all others should wear a three-layer fabric mask.
                            I think you are starting to make sense. If the media is lying about the lies coming from WHO, the media will actually be telling the truth. However, this misses the times when the two groups collude on the same lie.

                            Comment

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