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Why Public Health Experts Have Lost All Credibility...

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  • #16
    Originally posted by DivineOb View Post
    One might note that you seem to be complaining about nuance surrounding this issue.
    One might?

    I'm happy to take a look at whatever you want to link me but I don't remember *ever* hearing that "face masks don't help" only that "face masks will do you little unlike health workers who need them tremendously."
    A) You don't remember Fauci initially suggesting we NOT wear face masks?
    2) You haven't seen the link to WHO's website where their FAQ suggests NOT wearing face masks, except...
    C) You think "purposely misleading" somebody is a good strategy that builds trust and confidence?
    4) WHERE have I said or implied that "face masks don't help"?

    In your world, is "purposely misleading" called "nuance"?
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      One might?
      Would you prefer I say "You are..."? That seems more accusatory than I would prefer.


      A) You don't remember Fauci initially suggesting we NOT wear face masks?
      You can link me to whatever you want me to read. I don't watch the news and I don't watch Trump's briefings. This is the first hit I get when searching for "fauci don't wear face masks."


      2) You haven't seen the link to WHO's website where their FAQ suggests NOT wearing face masks, except...
      C) You think "purposely misleading" somebody is a good strategy that builds trust and confidence?
      I need to see what you are referencing so I can understand whether / how people were allegedly being misled. It is possible that there was *nuance* in what was said *or* it reflected the best understanding of the time. If you can give me a starting point I can look into this myself for my own understanding. I haven't researched this enough for myself (I already knew that masks work if everyone can get them and wear them. As I've said, my wife is from HK where they've dealt with this a few times before already).

      I tried opening older snapshots of the CDC COVID 19 mask advice on archive.org but couldn't get that to work so I can't see their phrasing.



      4) WHERE have I said or implied that "face masks don't help"?
      If you really want a response to this I'll give it but that was my interpretation of your CDC paraphrase. Whatevs.

      In your world, is "purposely misleading" called "nuance"?
      No. That people were being "purposely misled" is something I would need to take a look at. As I said, it is known that masks help when worn by the population at large and has been known for *years* if not decades!

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by DivineOb View Post
        Would you prefer I say "You are..."? That seems more accusatory than I would prefer.
        I'm a big girl.

        You can link me to whatever you want me to read. I don't watch the news and I don't watch Trump's briefings. This is the first hit I get when searching for "fauci don't wear face masks."
        It's been all over this board - it really doesn't seem fair to have to bring it all up again. Initially, Fauci had explained (not the video you posted) that it's problematic for people to wear face masks, because they don't know how to wear them, they fiddle with them, they touch their faces....

        Later, it was claimed he was being purposely misleading so that the first responders would have sufficient masks.

        A) this source is the NYT, and they have lost pretty much all credibility, but it's the first link I found quickly
        2) it's behind a paywall, so I'll find a better source
        C) it's opinion, but, nevertheless --- Why Telling People They Don’t Need Masks Backfired


        I need to see what you are referencing so I can understand whether / how people were allegedly being misled. It is possible that there was *nuance* in what was said *or* it reflected the best understanding of the time. If you can give me a starting point I can look into this myself for my own understanding. I haven't researched this enough for myself (I already knew that masks work if everyone can get them and wear them. As I've said, my wife is from HK where they've dealt with this a f
        I think your typewriter ran out of ink, or the ribbon broke.

        I tried opening older snapshots of the CDC COVID 19 mask advice on archive.org but couldn't get that to work so I can't see their phrasing.
        I was referring to WHO, not CDC.

        If you really want a response to this I'll give it but that was my interpretation of your CDC paraphrase. Whatevs.
        CDC?

        No. That people were being "purposely misled" is something I would need to take a look at. As I said, it is known that masks help when worn by the population at large and has been known for *years* if not decades!
        I'm not arguing the effectiveness at all -- I'm arguing the MIXED MESSAGING.
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by DivineOb View Post
          You can link me to whatever you want me to read.
          http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post742819
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by DivineOb View Post
            Responses to this letter are the reason I don't believe that the typical American is able to walk and chew gum at the same time in their exploration of complex social / political issues. Do I agree with the letter? More 'no' than 'yes.' Does this letter mean "we need not listen to [Public Health Experts]"? Come on...
            Exactly right.

            Americans these days only read information from the media right up to the point that it allows them to conclude "I'm right!". They stop as soon as that happens - which is a shame, because a closer reading of the information being presented could either tell the reader to not make hasty conclusions, or that more investigation (on the part of the reader) is warranted.

            Just because a thousand people signed some document means little UNLESS you know:

            • exactly who produced the document
            • exactly what the document says
            • exactly who those signees were



            Most people will never know each of these things before deciding "this reinforces my conclusions on [X]!", and thus spouting off to other people about things they've made hasty conclusions about.

            Are Floyd mass-protests bad for COVID-19 transmission?

            Obviously yes.

            How dangerous?

            We're going to find out pretty soon...
            Last edited by Whateverman; 06-04-2020, 03:49 PM.

            Comment


            • #21
              Here's the letter.

              Go read it if the formatting here makes you nauseous...


              age
              1
              Page 1 of 15

              Open letter advocating for an anti-racist public health response to demonstrations against systemic
              injustice occurring during the COVID-19 pandemic
              On April 30, heavily armed and predominantly white protesters entered the State Capitol building in Lansing,
              Michigan, protesting stay-home orders and calls for widespread public masking to prevent the spread of
              COVID-19. Infectious disease physicians and public health officials publicly condemned these actions and
              privately mourned the widening rift between leaders in science and a subset of the communities that they
              serve. As of May 30, we are witnessing continuing demonstrations in response to ongoing, pervasive, and
              lethal institutional racism set off by the killings of George Floyd and Breonna Taylor, among many other Black
              lives taken by police. A public health response to these demonstrations is also warranted, but this message
              must be wholly different from the response to white protesters resisting stay-home orders. Infectious disease
              and public health narratives adjacent to demonstrations against racism must be consciously anti-racist, and
              infectious disease experts must be clear and consistent in prioritizing an anti-racist message.
              White supremacy is a lethal public health issue that predates and contributes to COVID-19. Black
              people are twice as likely to be killed by police compared to white people, but the effects of racism are far more
              pervasive. Black people suffer from dramatic health disparities in life expectancy, maternal and infant mortality,
              chronic medical conditions, and outcomes from acute illnesses like myocardial infarction and sepsis. Biological
              determinants are insufficient to explain these disparities. They result from long-standing systems of oppression
              and bias which have subjected people of color to discrimination in the healthcare setting, decreased access to
              medical care and healthy food, unsafe working conditions, mass incarceration, exposure to pollution and noise,
              and the toxic effects of stress. Black people are also more likely to develop COVID-19. Black people with
              COVID-19 are diagnosed later in the disease course and have a higher rate of hospitalization, mechanical
              ventilation, and death. COVID-19 among Black patients is yet another lethal manifestation of white supremacy.
              In addressing demonstrations against white supremacy, our first statement must be one of unwavering support
              for those who would dismantle, uproot, or reform racist institutions.
              Staying at home, social distancing, and public masking are effective at minimizing the spread of
              COVID-19. To the extent possible, we support the application of these public health best practices during
              demonstrations that call attention to the pervasive lethal force of white supremacy. However, as public health
              advocates, we do not condemn these gatherings as risky for COVID-19 transmission. We support them as vital
              to the national public health and to the threatened health specifically of Black people in the United States. We
              can show that support by facilitating safest protesting practices without detracting from demonstrators’ ability to
              gather and demand change. This should not be confused with a permissive stance on all gatherings,
              particularly protests against stay-home orders. Those actions not only oppose public health interventions, but
              are also rooted in white nationalism and run contrary to respect for Black lives. Protests against systemic
              racism, which fosters the disproportionate burden of COVID-19 on Black communities and also
              perpetuates police violence, must be supported.
              Therefore, we propose the following guidance to support public health:
              ● Support local and state governments in upholding the right to protest and allow protesters to gather.
              ● Do not disband protests under the guise of maintaining public health for COVID-19 restrictions.








              Page 2 of 15

              ● Advocate that protesters not be arrested or held in confined spaces, including jails or police vans, which
              are some of the highest-risk areas for COVID-19 transmission.
              ● Oppose any use of tear gas, smoke, or other respiratory irritants, which could increase risk for COVID- 19 by making the respiratory tract more susceptible to infection, exacerbating existing inflammation,
              and inducing coughing.
              ● Demand that law enforcement officials also respect infection prevention recommendations by
              maintaining distance from protesters and wearing masks.
              ● Reject messaging that face coverings are motivated by concealment and instead celebrate face
              coverings as protective of the public’s health in the context of COVID-19.
              ● Prepare for an increased number of infections in the days following a protest. Provide increased access
              to testing and care for people in the affected communities, especially when they or their family
              members put themselves at risk by attending protests.
              ● Support the health of protesters by encouraging the following:
              ○ Use of face coverings.
              ○ Distance of at least 6 feet between protesters, where possible.
              ○ Demonstrating consistently alongside close contacts and moving together as a group, rather
              than extensively intermingling with multiple groups.
              ○ Staying at home when sick, and using other platforms to oppose racism for high-risk individuals,
              and those unable or uncomfortable to attend in person.

              ● Encourage allies who may wish to facilitate safe demonstrations through the following:
              ○ Providing masks, hand-washing stations, or hand sanitizer to demonstrators.
              ○ Providing eye protection, such as face shields or goggles, for protection against COVID-19 and
              chemical irritants used to disperse crowds.
              ○ Bringing wrapped, single-serving food or beverages to sustain people protesting.
              ○ Providing chalk markings or other designations to encourage appropriate distancing between
              protesters.
              ○ Supplying ropes, which can be knotted at 6-foot intervals, to allow people to march together
              while maintaining spacing.
              ○ Donating to bail funds for protesters
              ● Listen, and prioritize the needs of Black people as expressed by Black voices.
              These are strategies for harm reduction. It is our sincere hope that all participants will be able to follow these
              suggestions for safer public demonstrations, assisted by allies where possible and necessary, but we
              recognize that this may not always be the case. Even so, we continue to support demonstrators who are
              tackling the paramount public health problem of pervasive racism. We express solidarity and gratitude toward
              demonstrators who have already taken on enormous personal risk to advocate for their own health, the health
              of their communities, and the public health of the United States. We pledge our services as allies who share
              this goal.
              This letter is signed by 1,288 public health professionals, infectious diseases professionals, and
              community stakeholders.







              Page 3 of 15

              Aaron Greiner
              Aaron Laviana, MD, MBA_Vanderbilt University Medical
              Center
              Aaron W Stewart, MS4 UWSOM
              Abharika Sapru, WSU medical student
              Abigail Cartus MPH, University of Pittsburgh Graduate School
              of Public Health
              Abigail Lee, MPH, The University of Iowa
              Abir Hussein, M.D Infectious Disease Fellow, University of
              Washington
              Abraham Rice
              Activist
              Adam Cohen
              Adam Tapley, MD, Cambridge Health Alliance, Mass.
              Adam Whalen, MPH Candidate in Epidemiology at Columbia
              University Mailman School of Public Health
              Aditya S Khanna, PhD. The University of Chicago
              Adriana Dail
              Adriele Fugal
              Adrienne Jones - African American
              Adrienne Shapiro, MD, PhD, Depts. of Global Health and
              Medicine, University of Washington
              Adrienne Williams
              Agata Bereznicka, MPH Candidate, Boston University
              Agnes Graves MD
              Aileen Navarrete, BUSPH
              Akash Virupakshaiah, CHOP
              Alaina DeKerlegand, Infectious Diseases Pharmacist
              Alan Shu, University of Washington School of Medicine
              Alena Markmann, University of North Carolina
              Alex Junker, Columbia University
              Alexa Pohl MD PhD
              Alexander Lankowski, MD (University of Washington)
              Alexander Tsai, Massachusetts General Hospital
              Alexander Wamboldt, PhD Inside Out Youth Services Manager
              of Prevention programs
              Alexandra Blair, Postdoctoral Fellow, University of Toronto
              Alexandra Phelan, Georgetown University
              Alexandra Regan, Boston University School of Public Health
              Alexandria Griffin, MPH Candidate UNC Gillings School of
              Global Public Health
              Alexandria Kragie, MD
              Alexia Rodriguez, MPH
              Alexis Handal, University of Michigan
              Alexis Kushner
              Ali Khan, MD, MPP, Oak Street Health
              Alic Shook, RN, Phd, University of Washington
              Alice Lee
              Alice Murnen, BSN, RN
              Alice Richter Lee
              Alice Williams
              Alicia Burns, University of Washington School of Medicine,
              MS3
              Alicia Callejo-Black
              Alicia RN, MN
              Alina Kung, MD MS, PGY-1 in Internal Medicine at UCLA
              Alina Schnake-Mahl ScD MPH, Cityblock health
              Alisa Jion Kim, University of Washington medical student
              Alison Roxby MD
              Alison Simmons, University of Toronto
              Alistair Brian Russell, Assistant Professor, UCSD
              Alix Ginsberg, MPH
              Allison Agwu MD ScM (Infectious Diseases Physician, Johns
              Hopkins University School of Medicine, Baltimore, MD USA)
              Allison Cammisa, medical student at the Frank H. Netter
              School of Medicine at Quinnipiac University
              Alpha Shrestha, MPH student, UNC Chapel Hill
              Althea M. Hamilton, MD
              Alyssa M. Thomas, Colorado School of Public Health
              Alyssa Patterson, MPH
              Alyssa R. Letourneau, MD, MPH / Mass General Hospital and
              Harvard Medical School, Boston, MA
              Alyssa Valentine, Master of Public Health Colorado School of
              Public Health, August 2020 (expected)
              Alysse Wurcel MD
              Amanda Carnes, Family Medicine Physician
              Amanda L., MPH
              Amanda Oropeza, MD
              Amanda Santander, MPH
              Amanda Sekijima, University of Washington School of
              Medicine
              Amanda Snow, Boston University School if Medicine
              Amber Akemi Piatt, MPH
              Amber Gipson, MPH, Albert Einstein College of Medicine
              Amber Streifel
              Amelia Gifford, Occupational Epidemiologist
              Amelia Knopf, Assistant Professor of Nursing, Indiana
              University
              Amelia Ziegler
              Amin Bemanian, MD, PhD
              Amina Saqib
              Amisha Parekh de Campos, Middlesex Hospice Homecare
              Amy Baugher, MPH - Epidemiologist
              Amy Blom
              Amy Hamilton
              Amy Pasternack MD, Cambridge Health Alliance
              Ana Weil Acting Assistant Professor
              André Blackman, Founder/CEO Onboard Health
              Andrea Rose Molino, Epidemiologist, Johns Hopkins
              Bloomberg School of Public Health
              Andreina Orozco
              Andrew Bossick
              Andrew Dey, Public Health Student and Volunteer
              Andrew Finsness
              Andrew H
              Andrew Peace, MD
              Angela Alonzo
              Angela Bengtson
              Angela Budgin University of Colorado
              Angela Song, MD/MPH candidate, Perelman School of
              Medicine
              Angela Ulrich, PhD MPH Epidemiology Research Fellow,
              University of Minnesota
              Angela Venegas
              Angela Zhou, Cornell University



              Last edited by Whateverman; 06-04-2020, 03:48 PM.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Whateverman View Post
                Oh, come on, is this going to be another great thread ruined by FACTS?
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  Oh, come on, is this going to be another great thread ruined by FACTS?
                  Maybe the letter and the IDs of the signees will confirm the assumption in the OP. I don't know.

                  All I know is that I want to read more before deciding whether to accept the OP's assumption or not.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    I will read this entire thread and get back to you.

                    Sorry for getting CDC and WHO mixed up. Honestly I don't know what to make of the WHO after I saw the recent interview where (whoever it was from WHO) wouldn't acknowledge that Taiwan was not part of PRC and then cut the interview. I generally discourage people from making hasty judgements against large organizations based on isolated datapoints but it's pretty tough for me to swallow that.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Whateverman View Post
                      Maybe the letter and the IDs of the signees will confirm the assumption in the OP. I don't know.

                      All I know is that I want to read more before deciding whether to accept the OP's assumption or not.
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by DivineOb View Post
                        I will read this entire thread and get back to you.

                        Sorry for getting CDC and WHO mixed up. Honestly I don't know what to make of the WHO after I saw the recent interview where (whoever it was from WHO) wouldn't acknowledge that Taiwan was not part of PRC and then cut the interview. I generally discourage people from making hasty judgements against large organizations based on isolated datapoints but it's pretty tough for me to swallow that.
                        But, see - that's the problem -- if CDC is saying one thing, and WHO is saying another, who's right? How does the average Joe figure that out? What ends up happening is they just figure it's all politics or something.
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          But, see - that's the problem -- if CDC is saying one thing, and WHO is saying another, who's right? How does the average Joe figure that out? What ends up happening is they just figure it's all politics or something.
                          I prefer the Danish National Serum Institute, they published daily the statistics and showed contamination rates. They did really good in not overblowing it and it quickly became clear that it wasn't spreading nearly as much as had been feared that it could have, which was among the reasons for Denmark easing off the restrictions.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                            I prefer the Danish National Serum Institute, they published daily the statistics and showed contamination rates. They did really good in not overblowing it and it quickly became clear that it wasn't spreading nearly as much as had been feared that it could have, which was among the reasons for Denmark easing off the restrictions.
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by DivineOb View Post
                              You can link me to whatever you want me to read. I don't watch the news and I don't watch Trump's briefings. This is the first hit I get when searching for "fauci don't wear face masks."
                              OK, this is strange - I KNOW I saw the video of Fauci explaining "there's no need to wear a mask", and I specifically remember him using the word "fiddle", cause I thought that was odd.

                              So, here's a link to CBS News where they actually cite that very thing....

                              In March, Fauci told 60 Minutes that masks should largely be reserved for healthcare providers. In April, the recommendations were broadened to include simple masks for the general public.

                              And there's a hyperlink to the interview...

                              "There's no reason to be walking around with a mask," infectious disease expert Dr. Anthony Fauci told 60 Minutes.


                              But clicking on that link from CBS to another CBS article yields... no such thing.

                              There's actually a link clicking back to the original link....

                              "There's no reason to be walking around with a mask," infectious disease expert Dr. Anthony Fauci told 60 Minutes.

                              While masks may block some droplets, Fauci said, they do not provide the level of protection people think they do. Wearing a mask may also have unintended consequences: People who wear masks tend to touch their face more often to adjust them, which can spread germs from their hands.

                              But there is another risk to healthy people buying disposable masks as a precaution. The price of face masks is surging, and Prestige Ameritech, the nation's largest surgical mask manufacturer, is now struggling to keep up with the increased demand.

                              "It could lead to a shortage of masks for the people who really need it," Fauci said.


                              Now, mind you this is CBS News, not some right wing propaganda site...

                              There are links to videos which are only available, apparently, if you have CBS ALL ACCESS, so

                              AND.... from that same cite...

                              For healthy people, both the World Health Organization and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention recommend they wear masks only when taking care of those who are sick or suspected of having the virus.
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                                It's been all over this board - it really doesn't seem fair to have to bring it all up again. Initially, Fauci had explained (not the video you posted) that it's problematic for people to wear face masks, because they don't know how to wear them, they fiddle with them, they touch their faces....

                                Later, it was claimed he was being purposely misleading so that the first responders would have sufficient masks.

                                A) this source is the NYT, and they have lost pretty much all credibility, but it's the first link I found quickly
                                2) it's behind a paywall, so I'll find a better source
                                C) it's opinion, but, nevertheless --- Why Telling People They Don’t Need Masks Backfired

                                So, I looked through the thread you linked and the NYT article.

                                1) I don't understand why the WHO still has that guidance. Ox said elsewhere they gave different information but that hardly excuses leaving that outdated advice up. I really have no idea what to make of that.
                                2) In neither place did I find substantiation of the government intentionally misleading people. I saw *this* in the NYT article


                                First, many health experts, including the surgeon general of the United States, told the public simultaneously that masks weren’t necessary for protecting the general public and that health care workers needed the dwindling supply. This contradiction confuses an ordinary listener. How do these masks magically protect the wearers only and only if they work in a particular field?


                                Which is very much not the same thing. It took me around 2 seconds to figure out why masks would be best conserved (if indeed conservation is necessary) for health care workers rather than the general public.


                                I'm not arguing the effectiveness at all -- I'm arguing the MIXED MESSAGING.
                                Also, I saw that you said this in that thread


                                When I see a group of people all wearing masks, I have to smile and think, "years from now, people are going to look back at those pictures and think --- MAN, what a bunch of dummies".


                                Which I'm having a hard time interpreting in light of this discussion. It sounds like you believe pretty strongly that masks don't help. Is that what you believe?

                                Comment

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