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Fulfilled prophecy- I will build my church

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  • #31
    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post


    Discussing the Trinity would be a subject for another thread...

    Blessings,
    Lee
    Let's respect the thread-owner's wishes.
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      Let's respect the thread-owner's wishes.
      Agreed.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
        While being dated from the 6th century BC, what is written much latter is based on past on oral traditions prior to any cited written teachings. The teachings of the Christian New Testament were written from within the time when eye witnesses where known to the writers.
        But why would anyone write about an event as great as the Ressurection only about 40 years later (Paul's earliest letters)...?
        Last edited by Seeker; 06-10-2020, 02:46 AM.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Seeker View Post
          But why would anyone write about an event as great as the Ressurection only about 40 years later (Paul's earliest letters)...?
          But the gospels are earlier than Paul's letters...

          Blessings,
          Lee
          "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
            But the gospels are earlier than Paul's letters...

            Blessings,
            Lee
            As far as I know, that's simply false. ''These [Paul's] letters were most likely written during the height of Paul's missionary activity, between 50 and 58 a.d., making them the earliest surviving Christian documents—they predate the earliest of the Gospels, Mark, by at least ten years. During the winter of 57–58 a.d., Paul was in the Greek city of Corinth''.

            https://www.sparknotes.com/lit/newte...20of%20Corinth.

            ''The Pauline epistles, also called Epistles of Paul or Letters of Paul, are the thirteen books of the New Testament attributed to Paul the Apostle, although the authorship of some is in dispute. Among these epistles are some of the earliest extant Christian documents. They provide an insight into the beliefs and controversies of early Christianity''.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauline_epistles

            Regards.
            Last edited by Seeker; 06-13-2020, 05:48 PM.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Seeker View Post
              As far as I know, that's simply false. ''These [Paul's] letters were most likely written during the height of Paul's missionary activity, between 50 and 58 a.d., making them the earliest surviving Christian documents—they predate the earliest of the Gospels, Mark, by at least ten years. During the winter of 57–58 a.d., Paul was in the Greek city of Corinth''.
              Well, we're getting off-topic again, but here we read:

              Source: Got Questions

              For example, suggested dates for the writing of the Gospel of Matthew range from as early as A.D. 40 to as late as A.D. 140. This wide range of dates from scholars indicates the subjective nature of the dating process. Generally, one will find that the presuppositions of the scholars greatly influence their dating of the Gospels.

              Source

              © Copyright Original Source



              They continue:

              Source: Got Questions

              There are scholars who believe the Gospel of Matthew was written as early as ten to twelve years after the death of Christ. Those who hold to this earlier dating of Matthew believe he first wrote his Gospel in Aramaic, and then it was later translated into Greek. One of the evidences of this earlier dating of Matthew’s Gospel is that early church leaders such as Irenaeus, Origen, and Eusebius recorded that Matthew first wrote his Gospel for Jewish believers while he was still in Israel. In fact Eusebius (a bishop of Caesarea and known as the father of church history) reported that Matthew wrote his Gospel before he left Israel to preach in other lands, which Eusebius says happened about 12 years after the death of Christ. Some scholars believe that this would place the writing of Matthew as early as A.D. 40-45 and as late as A.D. 55.

              © Copyright Original Source



              Another point worthy of mention in the article is that the gospels make no mention of the destruction of the temple in A.D. 70.

              Blessings,
              Lee
              "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

              Comment


              • #37
                Yes, we'd better staying on topic. I will PM you when I can, or start a new thread. :)

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                  Originally posted by Whateverman View Post
                  The simple fact is that Buddhism has been around for thousands of years longer than Christianity has, and where you see success in growing the Christian church, you can find similar successes in Buddhism or Islam.
                  Well, not if you include Christianity's Jewish heritage!
                  Since Christianity became a rejection of Judaism, you don't get to count the age of one as the age of the other.

                  Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                  So we shall see how this turns out...
                  That's something you could literally say for eternity, and never recognize whether it came true or not...

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Whateverman View Post
                    Since Christianity became a rejection of Judaism, you don't get to count the age of one as the age of the other.
                    The Rabbinic Judaism of today is the development of a single surviving strand of Judaism from the various kinds of "Judaisms" that existed in 1st century Judaea. That Christianity rejected that particular strand of Judaism does not mean that we "don't get to count the age of one as the age of the other". On the contrary, Christianity itself, at least when it comes to it's Jewish followers in the first century, represents a separate understanding/strand of Judaism that survived alongside what would later become Rabbinic Judaism.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                      The Rabbinic Judaism of today is the development of a single surviving strand of Judaism from the various kinds of "Judaisms" that existed in 1st century Judaea. That Christianity rejected that particular strand of Judaism does not mean that we "don't get to count the age of one as the age of the other".
                      There isn't a Jew alive who thinks Jesus really was God made flesh. To the extent that Christians DO think this, they've rejected most (if not all) Judaisms.

                      For the purpose of determining the age of a religion, Christianity is not Judaism - and I respectfully submit to you that you know this as well.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Whateverman View Post
                        There isn't a Jew alive who thinks Jesus really was God made flesh.
                        What a profoundly ignorant statement. One of my associates is a Jew who preaches Jesus, crucified, buried and risen again.
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Whateverman View Post
                          There isn't a Jew alive who thinks Jesus really was God made flesh. To the extent that Christians DO think this, they've rejected most (if not all) Judaisms.

                          For the purpose of determining the age of a religion, Christianity is not Judaism - and I respectfully submit to you that you know this as well.
                          There were numerous forms of 2nd Temple Judaism in the 1st century of which some could have more or less easily accomodated the type of views that would later develop into orthodox Christianity. Implying that something like Rabbinic Judaism is the only legitimate strand/tradition of Judaism that survives from the 1st century is absurd and exposes an ignorance about the current state of knowledge about the diverse forms of 2nd Temple Judaisms that were prevalent during the 1st century in which Christianity originated.

                          As Larry Hurtado has convincingly argued, devotion towards Jesus among early Jewish Christians shows that the view that Jesus was divine did not arise as a result of hellenistic syncretism among hellenistic Jews (or because of Paul) but amongst the very earliest Jewish followers of Jesus, who still strongly maintained a very rigid monotheistic outlook.
                          Last edited by JonathanL; 06-23-2020, 06:42 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                            There were numerous forms of 2nd Temple Judaism in the 1st century of which some could have more or less easily accomodated the type of views that would later develop into orthodox Christianity.
                            Could you provide us with some examples?

                            Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                            Implying that something like Rabbinic Judaism is the only legitimate strand/tradition of Judaism that survives from the 1st century is absurd and exposes an ignorance about the current state of knowledge about the diverse forms of 2nd Temple Judaisms that were prevalent during the 1st century in which Christianity originated.
                            That there were different "philosophies of Judaism" in the first century [see Josephus] is not in dispute. However, I am interested in your contention that suggests one of those could "have more or less easily accomodated the type of views that would later develop into orthodox Christianity"; "orthodox Christianity" would, of course, require a specific definition within that context.

                            Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                            As Larry Hurtado has convincingly argued, devotion towards Jesus among early Jewish Christians shows that the view that Jesus was divine did not arise as a result of hellenistic syncretism among hellenistic Jews (or because of Paul) but amongst the very earliest Jewish followers of Jesus, who still strongly maintained a very rigid monotheistic outlook.
                            The late Dr Hurtado is entitled to his opinions, but he has no sources from those early Jewish Christians of the 40s or 50s CE by which to substantiate them.

                            You regularly refer to Hurtado - is he your only source on these matters?
                            "It ain't necessarily so
                            The things that you're liable
                            To read in the Bible
                            It ain't necessarily so
                            ."

                            Sportin' Life
                            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

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