The next 5 months of Trump

[Cow Poke]

I believe steadfastly that the traditional Republican party is dead.

Pretty much the traditional anything is dead.

[Whateverman]

It's more complicated than that, though. We have several industries (insurance, legal representation, managed health care, pharmaceuticals/research, etc) that have grown up around the competitive model of healthcare here in the US. Even if the government could find a way to afford to provide healthcare for all citizens (and yes, I know that doesn't mean they'd pay every penny), having them step in to provide it would have a pretty significant impact on the economy and the associated industries.

I personally think we need to reform several things before it's possible for the US to start treating healthcare like many other modern countries do.

Giving trillions in tax breaks to the wealthy has a significant impact on the economy, the enormous cost of healthcare for individuals has a significant impact on the economy.

Those impacts are well-known, and the economy / consumers have adjusted.

Getting rid of the competitive model of healthcare we have in this country would literally ruin sectors of the economy; the impacts would be destructive.

I'm not arguing against changing the system. Instead, I'm merely pointing out that changing to a more socialized system is going to take more work than people are willing to put in so far. Obamacare was a step in the right direction (as hobbled as it's become)...

[JimL]

Those impacts are well-known, and the economy / consumers have adjusted.

Getting rid of the competitive model of healthcare we have in this country would literally ruin sectors of the economy; the impacts would be destructive.

I'm not arguing against changing the system. Instead, I'm merely pointing out that changing to a more socialized system is going to take more work than people are willing to put in so far. Obamacare was a step in the right direction (as hobbled as it's become)...

Yeah, we're basically in agreement, that's why I like the idea of the public option. But one way or another the corrupt profit over health insurance industry has to go.

[Bill the Cat]

All of them, it's simply a corrupt system which needs be done away with. Of course it will have to be done in a way tha causes as little harm to workers as possible, but it has to go.

All of them. Let that sink in folks. Fire all of them, but cause "as little harm as possible". Because not having a job is not harm...

[JimL]

All of them. Let that sink in folks. Fire all of them, but cause "as little harm as possible". Because not having a job is not harm...

Getting rid of a corrupt and inefficient system is going to cost those working within it their jobs. Whatever the government can to help with the transition of the employees is warranted, but the corrupt and inefficient system itself has to go at any rate. Companies fold for many reasons and the employees lose their jobs. If the insurance industry wasn't so corrupt in the first place we wouldn't be at this point of needing to shut them down.

[Bill the Cat]

Getting rid of a corrupt and inefficient system is going to cost those working within it their jobs. Whatever the government can to help with the transition of the employees is warranted, but the corrupt and inefficient system itself has to go at any rate. Companies fold for many reasons and the employees lose their jobs. If the insurance industry wasn't so corrupt in the first place we wouldn't be at this point of needing to shut them down.

Transition to what, Jim?

[Starlight]

How many hundreds of thousands are you willing to put out of work

I can't say I'm a believer in the public subsidizing of pointless do-nothing jobs just for the sake of it. And given so many jobs in the US health insurance industry seem to revolve around denying people care rather than providing it, they're worse than pointless do-nothing jobs.

A horrible, corrupt, swamp-filled, money-draining, bloated, humanity-harming system shouldn't be retained just for the sake of the people it employs to do that harm.

The more inefficient a system is, the more people it will employ to do the same task, because of that inefficiency. But that's hardly a legitimate reason to want inefficiency!

just so you can have crappy government run healthcare?

In a detailed comparison of healthcare in 11 Western Nations the best performers were the government-run systems in the UK and Australia. They vastly outperformed the US system.

Why are you so desperate to retain your crappy privately-run healthcare? Although, given you work in the military I guess it isn't your crappy private run healthcare, you presumably get the government one that you're keen to deny to others. A bit of "for me but not for thee" happening here?

[Charles]

Rod Dreher wrote this a coulple of months into the Trump presidency:

https://frankschaefferblog.com/2020/...ian-reckoning/

As is pretty obvious by now quite many conservative Christians did not listen, did not understand or did not worry.

[Starlight]

Political power is not a moral disinfectant.

But will injecting it cure covid?

[Whateverman]

Rod Dreher wrote this a coulple of months into the Trump presidency:

As is pretty obvious by now quite many conservative Christians did not listen, did not understand or did not worry.

Christianity in the US has been on the decline for a little while now. As a critic of religion in general, I have to say I'm skeptical that its relationship with Trump will have effects beyond what we've already seen. If there's only one thing us skeptics should be able to agree on (and there are many), it's that religion is remarkably resilient - in part due to its unwillingness to self-reflect.

[Charles]

Christianity in the US has been on the decline for a little while now. As a critic of religion in general, I have to say I'm skeptical that its relationship with Trump will have effects beyond what we've already seen. If there's only one thing us skeptics should be able to agree on (and there are many), it's that religion is remarkably resilient - in part due to its unwillingness to self-reflect.

It is remarkably resiliient due to the unwillingness to self-reflect, no doubt about that (for quite many, not all). I would also point to an unwillingness to reflect on or even admit history, which is perhaps even more important. Anyway, what has happened in the recent years are text book examples of double standards, disregard for truth, human values, family values, pro- life values and the like. I have no illusion that they themselves will admit it (at least not the majority). However, I do hope, that those who were not apart of it will see it for what it is and hold them accountable for what they promoted, accepted or supported.

[Whateverman]

It is remarkably resiliient due to the unwillingness to self-reflect, no doubt about that (for quite many, not all). I would also point to an unwillingness to reflect on or even admit history, which is perhaps even more important. Anyway, what has happened in the recent years are text book examples of double standards, disregard for truth, human values, family values, pro- life values and the like. I have no illusion that they themselves will admit it (at least not the majority). However, I do hope, that those who were not apart of it will see it for what it is and hold them accountable for what they promoted, accepted or supported.

I agree with everything you've said. The link you pointed to is good news, and possibly an indication that your hope might eventually be well-founded.

And really, I know for a fact that there's more than one Christian who dislikes Trump, or that they voted for him, or that their church/community seems to have drifted away from Christian values in order to support the current administration. I know they're out there. Between you and me, I just came from a forum where any expression of distaste at the Republican candidate (whether by a Democrat, a Christian, etc) was immediately vilified, so I'm very glad to have found a different forum in which actual conversation can take place about this. I've already seen some Christians criticizing Trump or his policies.

We're already posting to a place where your stated hope is justified.

[Bill the Cat]

I can't say I'm a believer in the public subsidizing of pointless do-nothing jobs just for the sake of it. And given so many jobs in the US health insurance industry seem to revolve around denying people care rather than providing it, they're worse than pointless do-nothing jobs.

Utter ignorance from a foreigner. Why am I not surprised? I'm sure you will come up with some leftist "study" or another that says something about declining coverage for elective or otherwise unnecessary surgeries or something, so...

A horrible, corrupt, swamp-filled, money-draining, bloated, humanity-harming system shouldn't be retained just for the sake of the people it employs to do that harm.

Well, considering it is none of those things...

The more inefficient a system is, the more people it will employ to do the same task, because of that inefficiency. But that's hardly a legitimate reason to want inefficiency!

When you have actual competition, it isn't inefficiency. What causes the inefficiency is government regulations. Paperwork upon paperwork.

In a detailed comparison of healthcare in 11 Western Nations the best performers were the government-run systems in the UK and Australia. They vastly outperformed the US system.

Can't access that page from work. Perhaps you can summarize what you mean by "outperform"

Why are you so desperate to retain your crappy privately-run healthcare?

I've never had an issue with it.

Although, given you work in the military I guess it isn't your crappy private run healthcare, you presumably get the government one that you're keen to deny to others. A bit of "for me but not for thee" happening here?

You'd be wrong. I have Anthem Blue Cross/Blue Shield. The Federal Employee Health Benefit program does not provide Medicare for us. That's the only "government" one.

[Reepicheep]

In a detailed comparison of healthcare in 11 Western Nations the best performers were the government-run systems in the UK and Australia. They vastly outperformed the US system.

Donald Trump openly admits that Australia has a better healthcare system than the US. In fact, to quote Trump:

Donald Trump, May 5 2017

Interestingly, even though Trump admits that Americans have the worst healthcare in the world, during the first three and a half years of his presidency he was unable to make any improvements whatsoever, even though for the first two of those years Republicans had control of the Presidency, the House, and the Senate. Go figure.

[Ronson]

Donald Trump openly admits that Australia has a better healthcare system than the US. In fact, to quote Trump:

Donald Trump, May 5 2017

Interestingly, even though Trump admits that Americans have the worst healthcare in the world, during the first three and a half years of his presidency he was unable to make any improvements whatsoever, even though for the first two of those years Republicans had control of the Presidency, the House, and the Senate. Go figure.

Uh, that Trump quote sounds like sarcasm to me.