Will He Go?

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

I bet that most American voters don't realize that more than two candidates received electoral college votes in the 2016 election. The complete results are as follows:

304 - Trump
227 - Clinton
3 - Collin Powell
1 - Bernie Sanders
1 - John Kasich
1 - Ron Paul
1 - Faith Spotted Eagle

538 - TOTAL

I think the world would now be a better place, if an additional 267 "faithless electors" had voted for Collin Powell (although "President Faith Spotted Eagle" does kind of sing, doesn't it...).

It would be a better thing for the USA if it tightened up its electoral proceedings by the regular annual registration of all citizens eligible to vote and operated via its city and/or district councils [perhaps based on each individual's tax information] eliminating the partisan overseeing of the voting procedure, as well as doing everything possible to remove the risk of electoral corruption [fraud, hacking etc]. I still do not know what is wrong with a paper and pencil to register a vote. It may delay the result given that so many votes have to be counted, but so what? Other countries often delay the final results of their ballots without descending into chaos.

It also needs [somehow] to get rid of the electoral college, which is an anachronism from the late eighteenth century and has no business in a modern pluralistic twenty-first century nation.

Reading Lawrence Douglas' book and the devolution of so much to the various states one is left asking if the USA actually is a nation? Or is it just a loose confederation of States which, on some occasions, works in tandem with a federal government?

[mikewhitney]

From my reading there was no "original design". There were various suggestions put forward.

Trump is not like any other Presidents. He also knows that he risks the distinct possibility of facing indictment for obstruction of justice the moment he leaves office. The federal crime of obstruction is governed by a five year statute of limitations, and in 2020, prosecutors will be well within this statutory period, but by 2024, the deadline for bringing charges will have passed.

These would be trumped up charges. There has been talk of charging Obama for promoting or enabling spying on Trump, but it is unlikely that any former President will be charged for crimes in office. This is too politically charged -- and would really mess up the office of the President for ages.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

These would be trumped up charges.

That is your opinion.

There has been talk of charging Obama for promoting or enabling spying on Trump, but it is unlikely that any former President will be charged for crimes in office.

There was no evidence of Obama's misdemeanours that is why. Even Barr told Trump that was a cul-de-sac.

[mikewhitney]

Like I said, this electoral vote gives a chance for the minority states to have a voice in the federal government. It is of little significance that other "modern" constitutions don't have have this provision.

As to the paper ballots, it seems that a paper record is best. I'm not sure what Congressional Republicans have to do with State voting though. But even paper votes are not secure unless we can verify that there are no fradulent ballots created. There also is the concern for having privacy concerning one's vote. (I wonder if this was violated by the on-site printing of my ballot this last election cycle. There is a lot of trust involved in the process. If the trust is lost (as may be the goal of some), the relevance of the public vote also goes away.

[mikewhitney]

That is your opinion.

There was no evidence of Obama's misdemeanours that is why. Even Barr told Trump that was a cul-de-sac.

ah. on one side there is opinion on the other side there is "no evidence." I hope that these don't get so confused in your country too.

[One Bad Pig]

As I am not American I do not have to worry about it but I think Americans should be worrying about it. Ever since his election Trump has been contending that he did not "win" sufficiently. In 2016 he spoke regularly about voter fraud and his campaign website forecast the election being "stolen". He entreated his supporters to help him stop "Crooked Hillary".

His own "fixer" Michael Cohen ended his testimony before the House Oversight Committee last year with this statement "Given my experience working for Mr. Trump, I fear that if he loses the election in 2020 that there will never be a peaceful transition of power"

Yes, after Michael Cohen turned on Trump he said stuff like this. He also has issues with truthiness.

Over the past four years Trump has regularly dripped the poison of illegal and fraudulent votes and voters into the willing ears of his base and prepared the ground should his opponent beat him by a comparatively small majority.

What Trump says and what Trump does tends to diverge. His actions thus far have been rather more in line with what is proper than his words, and I see no reason to think that will change.

I'd also point out that many of his base are very well armed.

...and law abiding. You recall the riots in the streets when Obama won? Me either.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

ah. on one side there is opinion on the other side there is "no evidence." I hope that these don't get so confused in your country too.

You offered an opinion on a hypothetical. We do not know if those charges would be "trumped up" because as yet they have not been the subject of a trial and no defence or prosecution has brought witnesses and evidence.

As to the reality of accusations against Obama, there are none. As I noted, even Barr advised Trump to drop it.

[Terraceth]

Like I said, this electoral vote gives a chance for the minority states to have a voice in the federal government. It is of little significance that other "modern" constitutions don't have have this provision.

The electoral college does very little, if anything, to give minority states a voice in the federal government. First, they still have virtually no say; their number of electors is tiny compared to the total. It does increase their "power" but only by a small degree in the end.

Second, the electoral college actually, at least right now, makes presidential candidates less likely to care about those small states. Why? Because virtually all of them are so solidly Republican or Democrat that their vote is guaranteed. For example, Hawaii will vote Democrat and Wyoming will vote Republican. That's just the way it goes. No votes are up for grabs there, so no presidential candidate has any reason to care about them. In a popular vote, however, there would be votes up for grab in those states. Not many, but a few is obviously more than zero, so there would be some attention paid to them.

Finally, all of this "but it lets small states have a voice in the federal government!" rings a bit hollow when you look at the Senate, which is tailor-made to do that. Every state, no matter what its size, has equal representation. The Senate provides an enormous equalizer of power between states--insisting the electoral college is somehow needed for the smaller states to not get run over rings hollow when one considers that the Senate already accomplishes that, and arguably does too good a job accomplishing that.

[rogue06]

These would be trumped up charges. There has been talk of charging Obama for promoting or enabling spying on Trump, but it is unlikely that any former President will be charged for crimes in office. This is too politically charged -- and would really mess up the office of the President for ages.

You haven't been paying attention to the Democrats at all these past few years at all, have you? Do you think they care?

[rogue06]

These would be trumped up charges.

I saw what you did there.

[mikewhitney]

The electoral college does very little, if anything, to give minority states a voice in the federal government. First, they still have virtually no say; their number of electors is tiny compared to the total. It does increase their "power" but only by a small degree in the end.

Second, the electoral college actually, at least right now, makes presidential candidates less likely to care about those small states. Why? Because virtually all of them are so solidly Republican or Democrat that their vote is guaranteed. For example, Hawaii will vote Democrat and Wyoming will vote Republican. That's just the way it goes. No votes are up for grabs there, so no presidential candidate has any reason to care about them.
.

Hillary didn't care.

Probably New York will lose population after Cuomo's disasterous response to COVID-19. And California will lose population after killing its economy.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Yes, after Michael Cohen turned on Trump he said stuff like this. He also has issues with truthiness.

And his ex-boss does not have such issues?

What Trump says and what Trump does tends to diverge. His actions thus far have been rather more in line with what is proper than his words, and I see no reason to think that will change.

I trust your optimism is proved correct.

...and law abiding. You recall the riots in the streets when Obama won? Me either.

I recall reading of localised violence exhibited by those on the political Right including effigies being "lynched".

[Cow Poke]

This thread title reminds me of the book One Hundred Steps to the Outhouse by Willy Makit and Betty Dont.

[Leonhard]

Most likely I believe Trump will leave the White House after the end of his term. If he refuses to leave, then I believe he will be carried out, either by guards, or in a body bag.

[Ronson]

Most likely I believe Trump will leave the White House after the end of his term. If he refuses to leave, then I believe he will be carried out, either by guards, or in a body bag.

Trump just said yesterday that if he loses the election he has plenty of other things he'd like to do. That doesn't sound like someone who'd refuse to leave.