Did the Jews really kill Jesus?

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

You are getting back into semantics. You do that when you have no argument.

My argument is that the Jews did not kill Jesus. That they are accused of doing so is nothing but Christian apologetics and has led to the Jewish people being persecuted by the Christian church, and its adherents, for upward of 1700 years.

The Jewish Messiah was not expected to be executed by Rome - hence for the Jewish people, Jesus, as with all those other messianic claimants before and after him, was not the Messiah.

From Jews for Judaism https://www.jewsforjudaism.org/knowl...s-the-messiah/

a. The Messiah According To Judaism
One of the basic premises upon which Christianity rests is that Jesus was the Messiah predicted in the Jewish Bible. Judaism has always rejected this belief. Since the goal of “Hebrew Christian” missionaries is to convince Jews that Jesus did in fact fulfill the requirements of the promised Messiah, it is necessary to examine the Jewish understanding of the Messiah to understand why such claims are simply not true.

b. The Hebrew Roots Of The Word “Messiah”
The Hebrew word for “Messiah” is “Moshiach - .” The literal and proper translation of this word is “anointed,” which refers to a ritual of anointing and consecrating someone or something with oil (I Samuel 10:1-2). It is used throughout the Jewish Bible in reference to a wide variety of individuals and/or objects; for example, a Jewish king (I Kings 1:39), Jewish priests (Leviticus 4:3), prophets (Isaiah 61:1), the Jewish Temple and its utensils (Exodus 40:9-11), unleavened bread (Numbers 6:15), and a non-Jewish king (Cyrus king of Persia, Isaiah 45:1). *

* Some form of the Hebrew word moshiach is used over 150 times in the Jewish bible. Christians consistently translate this word as anointed, except in the ninth chapter of Daniel. In this chapter missionaries deviate from this and other correct translations in an attempt to prove that the messiah came before the destruction of the Second Temple. Rather than speaking about “the messiah,” when read in context and with a correct translation this chapter clearly speaks about two different “anointed” subjects hundreds of years apart. a) The first is the anointed King Cyrus (Isaiah 45:1) who granted permission to the Jews to return and build the Second Temple 52 years “7 weeks of years” after the destruction of the First Temple. b) The second is the anointed priesthood (Leviticus 4:3) that was terminated 434 years “62 weeks of years” later.

c. The Criteria To Be Fulfilled By The Jewish Messiah
In accurate translations of Jewish Scriptures, the word “Moshiach” is never translated as “Messiah,” but as “anointed.” Nevertheless, Judaism has always maintained a fundamental belief in a Messianic figure. Since the concept of a Messiah is one that was given by God to the Jews, Jewish tradition is best qualified to describe and recognize the expected Messiah. This tradition has its foundation in numerous biblical references, many of which are cited below. Judaism understands the Messiah to be a human being (with no connotation of deity or divinity) who will bring about certain changes in the world and who must fulfill certain specific criteria before being acknowledged as the Messiah.

These specific criteria are as follows:

1) He must be Jewish. (Deuteronomy. 17:15, Numbers 24:17)

2) He must be a member of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10) and a direct male descendant of King David (I Chronicles 17:11, Psalms 89:29-38, Jeremiah 33:17, II Samuel 7:12-16) and King Solomon.

(I Chronicles 22:10, II Chronicles 7:18)

3) He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel. (Isaiah 27:12-13, Isaiah 11:12)

4) He must rebuild the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. (Micah 4:1)

5) He must bring world peace. (Isaiah 2:4, Isaiah 11:6, Micah 4:3)

6) He must influence the entire world to acknowledge and serve one G-d. (Isaiah 11:9, Isaiah 40:5, Zephaniah 3:9)

All of these criteria for the Messiah are best stated in chapter 37:24-28 of the book of Ezekiel:

“and My servant David will be a king over them, and they will all have one shepherd, and they will walk in My ordinances, and keep My statutes, and observe them, and they shall live on the land that I gave to Jacob My servant...and I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and My dwelling place shall be with them, and I will be their G-d and they will be My people. And the nations will know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever.” (Ezekiel 37:24-28)

Emphasis: If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be the Messiah!

[Dan Zebiri]

Ans all your preferred sources are, naturally?

I would not consider NT Wright an unbiased source.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Ans all your preferred sources are, naturally?

He is not unbiased. He is, without doubt, a reputable New Testament scholar but he is unable to put aside his particular religious viewpoint when he writes or speaks.

There are other NT scholars who hold religious beliefs but who able to dissociate themselves from those beliefs in their writings.

[JonathanL]

He is not unbiased. He is, without doubt, a reputable New Testament scholar but he is unable to put aside his particular religious viewpoint when he writes or speaks.

There are other NT scholars who hold religious beliefs but who able to dissociate themselves from those beliefs in their writings.

As I said to shuny, unless you can demonstrate that his bias is leading him to make erroneous conclusions the mere fact that he is biased means jack all.

[Christian3]

Only for the fact that the Romans executed Jesus by crucifixion for rebellion against Rome. That was not in doubt.

Jesus was a threat to Rome AND to the Jewish leaders.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

As I said to shuny, unless you can demonstrate that his bias is leading him to make erroneous conclusions the mere fact that he is biased means jack all.

Erroneous in what regard?

[JonathanL]

Erroneous in what regard?

That would depend on what is being discussed, no?

[shunyadragon]

Ans all your preferred sources are, naturally?

Historical arguments that are based on known independent historical records, and archaeology without a religious agenda.

The Romans convicted and executed Jesus by crucifixion for rebellion against Rome and claiming to be the King of the Jews like others who made the same claim, and the Jews could not stop it if they wanted to, and rejected the claims of Jesus as most by far rejected all the Messianic figures that made the claim in this period of history.

[shunyadragon]

That would depend on what is being discussed, no?

Whether Jews killed Jesus.

[mikewhitney]

The preaching in Acts 2:36 still was just an appeal to the general audience for the circumstances of Jesus' death. This sort of verbiage is akin to saying to Brits, "you went to war against Argentina in the Falkland Islands." It can be leaders who actually did this -- but the statement of Peter is within normal speech. This was preaching with a comparison of who Jesus is and the unjustified death of him. Any misunderstanding of this text by anyone since then is simply the act of misunderstanding the text. Well, there was also persecution of Christians by Jews, as done by Saul. We also see how the mobs rose up against Paul in various cities (both by Jews and by Gentiles). So the Jew-Gentile relations remained rocky in that era.
So, acts 2:36 is a simple documentation of what Peter preached rather than some evil attempt to turn this Messianic Judaism against Jews. To read this any harsher than I have explained is to push a false metanarrative, beyond what the text can justify.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

That would depend on what is being discussed, no?

If it is theology, it is all opinion. If it is the known historical context in which certain ideas originated, that is another matter.

[mikewhitney]

If it is theology, it is all opinion. If it is the known historical context in which certain ideas originated, that is another matter.

You had recently posted that Jews knew their theology very well. Now you are back to saying theology is all opinion. Doublemindedness.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

You had recently posted that Jews knew their theology very well.

The Jews knew their theology insofar as the Messiah was concerned, and given that those criteria have never been fulfilled, the Messiah has not yet arrived.

You believe in a literal resurrection. However, it does not follow that what you believe actually took place.

Now you are back to saying theology is all opinion.

At the end of the day all theology is opinion, and on occasion backed up by force with the threat of dire punishments for those who dissent.

[mikewhitney]

The Jews knew their theology insofar as the Messiah was concerned, and given that those criteria have never been fulfilled, the Messiah has not yet arrived.

You believe in a literal resurrection. However, it does not follow that what you believe actually took place.


At the end of the day all theology is opinion, and on occasion backed up by force with the threat of dire punishments for those who dissent.

You can go full postmodern on us and say everything is only opinion or interpretation.

Paul's early commission to kill Christians was based on his studied Jewish opinion which, when confronted, he turned away from his incorrect opinion.

We have many early Christians who faced that dire punishment. The deaths were actual, not just opinions.

Maybe we can find a way to stop unnecessary deaths.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

You can go full postmodern on us and say everything is only opinion or interpretation.

You are entirely free to do so, if that is your wish.

Paul's early commission to kill Christians was based on his studied Jewish opinion which, when confronted, he turned away from his incorrect opinion.

What early commission and from whom?

We have many early Christians who faced that dire punishment. The deaths were actual, not just opinions.

Not as many as later martyrologies would lead you to believe.

Maybe we can find a way to stop unnecessary deaths.

The Christian church and religion has always been quite prepared to destroy those who do not accept the prevailing orthodoxy [whatever that was deemed to be].