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Did the Jews really kill Jesus?

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  • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    No I am not asserting that Jesus Christ is not the Messiah. I am arguing from the Jewish perspective on the life and death of Jesus Christ that is simply the facts of history without prejudice of any religious perspective as per the subject of the thread. You on the other hand fault the Jews for not stopping the execution of Jesus Christ, which is something they were unable to do regardless.
    I noted that this message about them killing their Messiah was more about their attitude, their lack of support for their Messiah. Plus, there were many (in a crowd) who were led to cheer on for the death of Jesus instead of Barabbas.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
      The Passover Amnesty is a fiction.

      That and other anti-Judaic/Semitic verses in various NT texts led to seventeen hundred years of the Christian church, and its adherents, persecuting the Jewish people.


      On what extraneous contemporary evidence?

      All you are citing is the "evidence" of the four canonical gospels.

      To attempt some understanding of why those documents [the earliest being Mark] came to make that libel has to be understood in the context of when those texts came to be written and the impact of the First Jewish War.
      You theory is unsubstantiated. It is a false assumption that there was anti-Jewish bias by the Jews who wrote the text. This is like calling Candace Owens a White Supremacist.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
        Regarding the situation in Judaea in the first half of the first century CE he is absolutely correct. The Jews had no power to execute for capital crimes. That power rested solely with the Praefectus and claiming, or being acclaimed, to have Messianic status was a capital offence.
        The situation of Roman authorities allowing or ignoring executions appears to be rather fluid. I believe that it was the well known expert of Hellenistic Judaism, Erwin Ramsdell Goodenough, who discovered that extralegal executions conducted by Jewish leaders weren't all that uncommon during that time. For instance, during the time[1] of the Hellenistic Jewish philosopher Philo of Alexander that in that city Roman authorities regularly turned a blind eye to it just as long as it was restricted to Jews who were not Roman citizens and was confined to religious issues.




        1. who lived during the first half of the first century A.D.

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
          The situation of Roman authorities allowing or ignoring executions appears to be rather fluid. I believe that it was the well known expert of Hellenistic Judaism, Erwin Ramsdell Goodenough, who discovered that extralegal executions conducted by Jewish leaders weren't all that uncommon during that time. For instance, during the time[1] of the Hellenistic Jewish philosopher Philo of Alexander that in that city Roman authorities regularly turned a blind eye to it just as long as it was restricted to Jews who were not Roman citizens and was confined to religious issues.




          1. who lived during the first half of the first century A.D.
          I have heard that too. Wouldn't the government be fine with Jews fighting each other, as long as there was no uprising against the government? I have not looked into this, but the Sadducees probably could not do a hearing with capital punishment. However, situations that did not involve a Sanhedrin hearing may have allowed the killing of certain Jewish enemies.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            The situation of Roman authorities allowing or ignoring executions appears to be rather fluid. I believe that it was the well known expert of Hellenistic Judaism, Erwin Ramsdell Goodenough, who discovered that extralegal executions conducted by Jewish leaders weren't all that uncommon during that time. For instance, during the time[1] of the Hellenistic Jewish philosopher Philo of Alexander that in that city Roman authorities regularly turned a blind eye to it just as long as it was restricted to Jews who were not Roman citizens and was confined to religious issues.




            1. who lived during the first half of the first century A.D.
            Of course, there were stonings to execute Jews under Jewish law, which were ignored by Roman authorities. I do not believe this is relevant to the fact that Jesus was executed by crucifixion under Roman Law for claiming to be the King of the Jews as others were at that time, which would subvert the authority of Rome.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
              For you, brothers {and sisters,} became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you suffered the same things from your own compatriots as they did from the Jews, who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out; they displease God and oppose everyone by hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. Thus they have constantly been filling up the measure of their sins; but God’s wrath has overtaken them at last.

              1st Thessalonians, 2: 14-16 (NRSV)


              This NT passage would appear to support the view that Paul himself actually believed that they did in fact do so, but is such a viewpoint historically credible?

              The statement is widely considered by many modern commentators and historians [quite correctly in my opinion] as a later interpolation into the original text of the letter - the mentioning of divine wrath upon the Jews being seen as a reference to the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of its temple by the Roman army in 70 CE - Paul being, in all probability, dead by this date.

              Does this extract merely reflect and lend credence to the markedly anti-Semitic tone of the gospel passion narratives, or was the historical situation in fact something rather different?

              Was the condemnation and execution of Jesus of Nazareth merely a routine Roman administrative process for dealing with messianic agitators accused of sedition or had this Galilean holy man committed any offence against Jewish religious law, and if he had done so, would a Roman military governor be cognisant of such matters?
              The Jews had Jesus put to death by the Romans.

              Cornelius Tacitus (55-120 AD), "the greatest historian" of ancient Rome:

              "Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired. Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man's cruelty, that they were being destroyed."

              Comment


              • Quite likely she will claim that the Tacitus citation was "an interpolation" too, I'd venture a guess


                Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
                The Jews had Jesus put to death by the Romans.

                Cornelius Tacitus (55-120 AD), "the greatest historian" of ancient Rome:

                "Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired. Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man's cruelty, that they were being destroyed."

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
                  Quite likely she will claim that the Tacitus citation was "an interpolation" too, I'd venture a guess
                  Good guess! The fact is it is a much later interpolation, based on the Roman bias at the time.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • What bias and what sound proof is there to back your claim?


                    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                    Good guess! The fact is it is a much later interpolation, based on the Roman bias at the time.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                      Good guess! The fact is it is a much later interpolation, based on the Roman bias at the time.
                      I loathe citing Wikipedia for something like this but it isn't like the above deserves better

                      Source: Tacitus on Christ


                      The scholarly consensus is that Tacitus' reference to the execution of Jesus by Pontius Pilate is both authentic, and of historical value as an independent Roman source.[5][6][7] Paul Eddy and Gregory Boyd argue that it is "firmly established" that Tacitus provides a non-Christian confirmation of the crucifixion of Jesus.[8] Scholars view it as establishing three separate facts about Rome around AD 60: (i) that there were a sizable number of Christians in Rome at the time, (ii) that it was possible to distinguish between Christians and Jews in Rome, and (iii) that at the time pagans made a connection between Christianity in Rome and its origin in Roman Judea.[9][10]




                      Source

                      © Copyright Original Source


                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • It doesn't. But just for clarity and rebuttals sake, your Wikipedia citation is more than enough. Anyone can open the source linked at the bottom to check out the facts, that the majority of reputable scholarly consensus do not consider the relatedTacitus quote as an interpolation.


                        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        I loathe citing Wikipedia for something like this but it isn't like the above deserves better

                        Source: Tacitus on Christ


                        The scholarly consensus is that Tacitus' reference to the execution of Jesus by Pontius Pilate is both authentic, and of historical value as an independent Roman source.[5][6][7] Paul Eddy and Gregory Boyd argue that it is "firmly established" that Tacitus provides a non-Christian confirmation of the crucifixion of Jesus.[8] Scholars view it as establishing three separate facts about Rome around AD 60: (i) that there were a sizable number of Christians in Rome at the time, (ii) that it was possible to distinguish between Christians and Jews in Rome, and (iii) that at the time pagans made a connection between Christianity in Rome and its origin in Roman Judea.[9][10]




                        Source

                        © Copyright Original Source

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
                          The Jews had Jesus put to death by the Romans.

                          Cornelius Tacitus (55-120 AD), "the greatest historian" of ancient Rome:

                          "Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired. Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man's cruelty, that they were being destroyed."
                          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                          I loathe citing Wikipedia for something like this but it isn't like the above deserves better

                          Source: Tacitus on Christ


                          The scholarly consensus is that Tacitus' reference to the execution of Jesus by Pontius Pilate is both authentic, and of historical value as an independent Roman source.[5][6][7] Paul Eddy and Gregory Boyd argue that it is "firmly established" that Tacitus provides a non-Christian confirmation of the crucifixion of Jesus.[8] Scholars view it as establishing three separate facts about Rome around AD 60: (i) that there were a sizable number of Christians in Rome at the time, (ii) that it was possible to distinguish between Christians and Jews in Rome, and (iii) that at the time pagans made a connection between Christianity in Rome and its origin in Roman Judea.[9][10]




                          Source

                          © Copyright Original Source

                          Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
                          It doesn't. But just for clarity and rebuttals sake, your Wikipedia citation is more than enough. Anyone can open the source linked at the bottom to check out the facts, that the majority of reputable scholarly consensus do not consider the relatedTacitus quote as an interpolation.
                          If you all actually read that Wiki article you would find that scholarly consensus is not as “cut and dried” as your comments to one another indicate.

                          As you seem predisposed to Wiki articles, Rational Wiki gives more detail. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Tacitus
                          "It ain't necessarily so
                          The things that you're liable
                          To read in the Bible
                          It ain't necessarily so
                          ."

                          Sportin' Life
                          Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                          Comment


                          • That's not what I said. If you actually read and understood my post properly, it said and implied that "the MAJORITY of reputable scholarly consensus" do NOT consider the relevant quote from Tacitus cited by Christian3, a later interpolation.

                            Since you love the non-Christian authors so much, you'll find J.D. Crossan of the Jesus Seminar and B.Erhman cited, who both accept Tacitus as an authentic record of the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ and the early church's proclamation of it.


                            Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                            If you all actually read that Wiki article you would find that scholarly consensus is not as “cut and dried” as your comments to one another indicate.

                            As you seem predisposed to Wiki articles, Rational Wiki gives more detail. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Tacitus

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
                              That's not what I said. If you actually read and understood my post properly, it said and implied that "the MAJORITY of reputable scholarly consensus" do NOT consider the relevant quote from Tacitus cited by Christian3, a later interpolation.
                              Based on a Wiki article?

                              Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
                              Since you love the non-Christian authors so much,
                              Infantile nonsense.
                              "It ain't necessarily so
                              The things that you're liable
                              To read in the Bible
                              It ain't necessarily so
                              ."

                              Sportin' Life
                              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                                Based on a Wiki article?

                                Infantile nonsense.
                                Mara Bar-Serapion, of Syria, writing between 70 and 200 AD from prison to motivate his son to emulate wise teachers of the past:

                                "What advantage did the Athenians gain from putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as a judgment for their crime. What advantage did the men of Samos gain from burying Pythagoras? In a moment their land was covered with sand. What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise king? It was just after that that their kingdom was abolished. God justly avenged these three wise men: the Athenians died of hunger; the Samians were overwhelmed by the sea; the Jews, ruined and driven from their land, live in complete dispersion. But Socrates did not die for good; he lived on in the teaching of Plato. Pythagoras did not die for good; he lived on in the statue of Hera. Nor did the wise king die for good; he lived on in the teaching which he had given."

                                Comment

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