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Did the Jews really kill Jesus?

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  • Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
    That's not what I said. If you actually read and understood my post properly, it said and implied that "the MAJORITY of reputable scholarly consensus" do NOT consider the relevant quote from Tacitus cited by Christian3, a later interpolation.

    Since you love the non-Christian authors so much, you'll find J.D. Crossan of the Jesus Seminar and B.Erhman cited, who both accept Tacitus as an authentic record of the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ and the early church's proclamation of it.
    Hypatia_Alexandria won't believe it unless she witnessed it herself.

    Comment


    • No, the Wiki article concerned quoted skeptics JD Crossan and Bart Erhman and their documented sources. Which rejected the conjectures of interpolation regarding Tacitus references to Jesus, His Crucifixion and the early church's eyewitnesses declarations about the above.

      Infantile nonsense? LOL! That is a perfect description of your speculative nonsense, really, more than anything else! Keep it up, my girl 😂👏🤯



      Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
      Based on a Wiki article?

      Infantile nonsense.

      Comment


      • Indeed, Christian3. Someone give her a time machine, quickly!


        Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
        Hypatia_Alexandria won't believe it unless she witnessed it herself.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
          Indeed, Christian3. Someone give her a time machine, quickly!
          DeLorean actually...
          Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
            Mara Bar-Serapion, of Syria, writing between 70 and 200 AD from prison to motivate his son to emulate wise teachers of the past:

            "What advantage did the Athenians gain from putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as a judgment for their crime. What advantage did the men of Samos gain from burying Pythagoras? In a moment their land was covered with sand. What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise king? It was just after that that their kingdom was abolished. God justly avenged these three wise men: the Athenians died of hunger; the Samians were overwhelmed by the sea; the Jews, ruined and driven from their land, live in complete dispersion. But Socrates did not die for good; he lived on in the teaching of Plato. Pythagoras did not die for good; he lived on in the statue of Hera. Nor did the wise king die for good; he lived on in the teaching which he had given."
            And?
            "It ain't necessarily so
            The things that you're liable
            To read in the Bible
            It ain't necessarily so
            ."

            Sportin' Life
            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
              No, the Wiki article concerned quoted skeptics JD Crossan and Bart Erhman and their documented sources.
              Those are their opinions with regard to this.

              Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
              Which rejected the conjectures of interpolation regarding Tacitus references to Jesus, His Crucifixion and the early church's eyewitnesses declarations about the above.
              I do not think either Ehrman or Crossan consider that the four canonical gospels were written by eyewitnesses to the crucifixion.

              Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
              Infantile nonsense? LOL! That is a perfect description of your speculative nonsense, really, more than anything else! Keep it up, my girl 😂👏🤯
              Well sonny, the fact remains that we cannot know with any certainty if this section, as it has come down to us, was originally composed by Tacitus.
              "It ain't necessarily so
              The things that you're liable
              To read in the Bible
              It ain't necessarily so
              ."

              Sportin' Life
              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

              Comment


              • Skeptical Biblical scholar Bart D. Ehrman wrote: "Tacitus's report confirms what we know from other sources, that Jesus was executed by order of the Roman governor of Judea, Pontius Pilate, sometime during Tiberius's reign."

                - Ehrman, Bart D. (2001). Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium. Oxford University Press. p. 59. ISBN 978-0195124743.

                Another skeptic but celebrated scholar from the Jesus Seminar, John D.Crossan considers the Tacitus passage important in establishing that Jesus existed and was crucified, and states:

                "That he was crucified is as sure as anything historical can ever be, since both Josephus and Tacitus... agree with the Christian accounts on at least that basic fact."

                - Crossan, John Dominic (1995). Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography. HarperOne. ISBN 0-06-061662-8 page 145.

                John P. Meier states that there is no historical or archaeological evidence to support the argument that a scribe may have introduced the passage into the text.

                - From John P. Meier, A Marginal Jew: Rethinking the Historical Jesus, Doubleday: 1991. vol 1: p. 168-171.

                Paul Eddy and Gregory Boyd argue that it is "firmly established" that Tacitus provides a non-Christian confirmation of the crucifixion of Jesus.

                Suggestions that the whole of Annals by Tacitus may have been a forgery have also been generally rejected by both conservative and skeptical scholars and their studied conclusion.

                What you wish as "their opinions" are merely also your wishful thinking any more than are your anti-Christian assertions that color so much of your opinions and speculative attempts to "de-construct Christianity" and destroy it. So desperately passionate..and also so misled.




                Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                Those are their opinions with regard to this.

                I do not think either Ehrman or Crossan consider that the four canonical gospels were written by eyewitnesses to the crucifixion.

                Well sonny, the fact remains that we cannot know with any certainty if this section, as it has come down to us, was originally composed by Tacitus.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                  And?
                  What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise king?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
                    Skeptical Biblical scholar Bart D. Ehrman wrote: "Tacitus's report confirms what we know from other sources, that Jesus was executed by order of the Roman governor of Judea, Pontius Pilate, sometime during Tiberius's reign."

                    - Ehrman, Bart D. (2001). Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium. Oxford University Press. p. 59. ISBN 978-0195124743.

                    Another skeptic but celebrated scholar from the Jesus Seminar, John D.Crossan considers the Tacitus passage important in establishing that Jesus existed and was crucified, and states:

                    "That he was crucified is as sure as anything historical can ever be, since both Josephus and Tacitus... agree with the Christian accounts on at least that basic fact."

                    - Crossan, John Dominic (1995). Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography. HarperOne. ISBN 0-06-061662-8 page 145.

                    John P. Meier states that there is no historical or archaeological evidence to support the argument that a scribe may have introduced the passage into the text.

                    - From John P. Meier, A Marginal Jew: Rethinking the Historical Jesus, Doubleday: 1991. vol 1: p. 168-171.

                    Paul Eddy and Gregory Boyd argue that it is "firmly established" that Tacitus provides a non-Christian confirmation of the crucifixion of Jesus.

                    Suggestions that the whole of Annals by Tacitus may have been a forgery have also been generally rejected by both conservative and skeptical scholars and their studied conclusion.

                    What you wish as "their opinions" are merely also your wishful thinking any more than are your anti-Christian assertions that color so much of your opinions and speculative attempts to "de-construct Christianity" and destroy it. So desperately passionate..and also so misled.
                    How amusing that you vehemently defend these academics' opinions on one issue when those coincide with your religious beliefs. However, neither Ehrman nor Crossan hold to your views on the "eyewitnesses" for the crucifixion.

                    I am not emphatically stating that either Ehrman or Crossan are wrong I have made it quite clear, we simply do not know. I repeat there are question marks over this section and there are other equally well qualified academics whose opinions do not agree with either Crossan or Ehrman. So who is right?
                    "It ain't necessarily so
                    The things that you're liable
                    To read in the Bible
                    It ain't necessarily so
                    ."

                    Sportin' Life
                    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
                      What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise king?
                      Clearly Jesus was not the Messiah, the anointed King, as he did not bring about the Kingdom of God.

                      Your remark is a both a libel and gross calumny against the Jewish people. For upward of seventeen hundred years the Christian church and its adherents has used those malicious lies to persecute the Jews as Deicides and Christ Killers.
                      "It ain't necessarily so
                      The things that you're liable
                      To read in the Bible
                      It ain't necessarily so
                      ."

                      Sportin' Life
                      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                        How amusing that you vehemently defend these academics' opinions on one issue when those coincide with your religious beliefs. However, neither Ehrman nor Crossan hold to your views on the "eyewitnesses" for the crucifixion.

                        I am not emphatically stating that either Ehrman or Crossan are wrong I have made it quite clear, we simply do not know. I repeat there are question marks over this section and there are other equally well qualified academics whose opinions do not agree with either Crossan or Ehrman. So who is right?

                        1) They provided information from academically recognized experts to show there is competent belief that Tacitus's statement is authentic as is. Your reply of "oh you silly people" is hardly a rational reply.

                        2) You started this topic. You must have expected people to respond with their OPINIONS. Opinions were indeed provided and some also showed sound backups for their responses.
                        Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                          Clearly Jesus was not the Messiah, the anointed King, as he did not bring about the Kingdom of God.
                          That is what you think. All of us who know God through the belief inJesus as the Messiah know better.

                          There is a one hour video with a lecture about how the Apostle Paul invented Christian theology, which I came across, thinking of some of your comments.



                          2 Corinthians 5:17, ". . . Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. . . ."

                          1 Corinthians 2:16, ". . . But we have the mind of Christ. . . ."

                          Romans 12:2, ". . . And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. . . ."
                          Last edited by 37818; 06-27-2020, 01:48 PM.
                          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                            If you all actually read that Wiki article you would find that scholarly consensus is not as “cut and dried” as your comments to one another indicate.

                            As you seem predisposed to Wiki articles, Rational Wiki gives more detail. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Tacitus
                            At least I felt embarrassed at citing Wikipedia but you show no shame turning to Rational Wiki


                            Their principle argument seems to be the paucity of contemporaneous accounts of Nero's persecution of Christians for the burning of Rome and they use that to base a claim that the passage is a later interpolation.

                            What this argument overlooks is that we have lost a massive number of works that were very famous and repeatedly copied. For instance we only have 6 out of at least 90 of Aeschylus' plays. Similarly only 7 of Sophocles' 123 plays still exist. They are and were so well-regarded that both of their works are still being performed today.

                            It is thought that today we only have roughly a third of Aristotle's works. Probably most famously his Poetics (dealing with comedy) which is the missing work at the center of Umberto Eco' excellent novel, The Name of the Rose. Considering how highly regarded Aristotle was by medieval and Renaissance Christians (especially in the West) the fact that so much has been lost can hardly be blamed on Christians seeking to destroy pagan works.

                            Even many of the works written by Emperors and the like have been lost and you know darn well these were repeatedly copied and shipped all over the Roman Empire. And for the few that are still extant, nearly all of the earliest copies come from several centuries later. For instance, the earliest copy of Julius Caesar's Commentarii de Bello Gallico ("The Gallic Wars") date from something like nearly 800 years after the original was written.

                            And then there is the 79 AD eruption of Mt. Vesuvius, which annihilated several Roman cities including Pompeii and Herculaneum, and was witnessed by the tens of thousands of eyewitnesses in and around Naples but is only mentioned by one near contemporary account -- that of Pliny the Younger. Keep in mind that Naples had a reputation during Greco-Roman times as being an area with a highly literate population so we should have a slew of eyewitness reports in our hands not just one. And, IIRC, Pliny's account, written some 30 years later, was spurred on in reaction to Tacitus' Histories.

                            The point being, is that this argument is a non-starter.

                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                              That is what you think. All of us who know God through the belief inJesus as the Messiah know better.

                              There is a one hour video with a lecture about how the Apostle Paul invented Christian theology, which I came across, thinking of some of your comments.



                              2 Corinthians 5:17, ". . . Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. . . ."

                              1 Corinthians 2:16, ". . . But we have the mind of Christ. . . ."

                              Romans 12:2, ". . . And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. . . ."
                              Is there a captioned version of this?
                              Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                                At least I felt embarrassed at citing Wikipedia but you show no shame turning to Rational Wiki
                                Read what I wrote and do not try and pretend I "show no shame" That is duplicity on your part. As you seemed to prefer Wiki I gave you another article from the same source.
                                "It ain't necessarily so
                                The things that you're liable
                                To read in the Bible
                                It ain't necessarily so
                                ."

                                Sportin' Life
                                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                                Comment

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