Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
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Did the Jews really kill Jesus?
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Originally posted by mikewhitney View Postgood whitewash.
The number of early Christians who died for their faith was not as great as later martryologies would claim and the Christian church and religion has a long and bloody history of oppression and repression.Last edited by Hypatia_Alexandria; 07-02-2020, 08:04 PM."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Trucker View PostAnd by an apparent expert in the art of "Whitewashing"!! Postmodernism at it's best!!
And, before anyone screams INSULT ... i'M complimenting the lady on her ability to "whitewash"!!"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostIS is not the first fanatical religious group to smash up buildings in Palmyra, and other ancient sites.
You are really good and diversions!Last edited by Trucker; 07-03-2020, 11:18 AM.
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Originally posted by Trucker View PostDiversionary. i never mentioned ISIS which I assume you refer to when you say "IS". I spoke of ISLAM and Islam is here. Islam is now. An d Islam is doing very well. And I did present you some hard facts on Islam which you simply hand waved off. Typical.I do realize this is probably not the proper forum for a serious discussion on Islam, but I was addressing your comments. Come on over to the Islam board here is you wish to discuss Islam.
You are really good and diversions!
Nor, contrary to Mike's assumptions, were the numbers of early Christians executed for their political behaviour as great as later martyrologies would suggest."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostThe tragic fact remains that Christianity has a long bloodthirsty and destructive history, just as repellent as any brutalities or destruction done in the name of Islam in recent history.
Nor, contrary to Mike's assumptions, were the numbers of early Christians executed for their political behaviour as great as later martyrologies would suggest.
The other thing that has to be considered is that "leaders" among Christian groups can act bad without the general Christians being bad. Any evils done simply fall back on the humanity characteristics of all people -- the hearts set against God. This happened among Jews too. You keep painting with a broad brush. You like to use the worst of ancient situations (probably many that were justifiable) to describe all Christians. There also Christian groups that did not participate in any power grabs.
If you misunderstand a math book, that does not mean that the math book was wrong. Your logic follows this path.
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostMy argument is that the Jews did not kill Jesus. That they are accused of doing so is nothing but Christian apologetics and has led to the Jewish people being persecuted by the Christian church, and its adherents, for upward of 1700 years.
The Jewish Messiah was not expected to be executed by Rome - hence for the Jewish people, Jesus, as with all those other messianic claimants before and after him, was not the Messiah.
From Jews for Judaism https://www.jewsforjudaism.org/knowl...s-the-messiah/
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostMy argument is that the Jews did not kill Jesus. That they are accused of doing so is nothing but Christian apologetics and has led to the Jewish people being persecuted by the Christian church, and its adherents, for upward of 1700 years.
The Jewish Messiah was not expected to be executed by Rome - hence for the Jewish people, Jesus, as with all those other messianic claimants before and after him, was not the Messiah.
From Jews for Judaism https://www.jewsforjudaism.org/knowl...s-the-messiah/
[i]
It is only the disobedient part of Judaism that rejected Jesus as the Messiah in the first century. The obedient Jews acknowledged their sins and came to Jesus as the Messiah. Those who recognize Jesus as the Messiah also recognize Jesus fulfilled all the requirements -- even those which the Pharisees and other teachers added on to the list of requirements.
The preaching of Peter in Acts 2 is not an "apologetic" but is just a record of what Peter preached and how the people responded. You have to provide video recordings of Peter preaching something else in order to prove he didn't say this.Last edited by mikewhitney; 07-03-2020, 01:23 PM.
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostWhat else would you expect from a group solely dedicated to keeping Jews from converting?
You appear to have forgotten I Kings 1.32-46. That is the original meaning and understanding of Messiah [anointed].
As a matter of interest how do you personally feel about Mormons, or some other group, coming into Christian communities and [as they do] attempting to proselytise? After all the Mormons have all the trappings of Christianity, not to mention a few of their own devising, I would suggest that you are perfectly justified in feeling a sense of outrage. Yet you appear surprised that Jews continue to feel aggrieved by Christian missionaries trying to do undermine the Jewish faith in a similar manner."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostThat is not the point at issue. Jewish messianism was appropriated by Christianity and adapted for its own specific theological purposes.
You appear to have forgotten I Kings 1.32-46. That is the original meaning and understanding of Messiah [anointed].
As a matter of interest how do you personally feel about Mormons, or some other group, coming into Christian communities and [as they do] attempting to proselytise? After all the Mormons have all the trappings of Christianity, not to mention a few of their own devising, I would suggest that you are perfectly justified in feeling a sense of outrage. Yet you appear surprised that Jews continue to feel aggrieved by Christian missionaries trying to do undermine the Jewish faith in a similar manner.Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette
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And I'm questioning the Jews for Judaism claim that Christians did not consistently translate Daniel 9:25 as "anointed". a very quick skim of bibles at Bible Gateway show several translations that say "the anointed one" others say simply "Messiah". One modern english version say "God's chosen leader".
But of course that's the English versions....perhaps another language was used by the missionaries the writer speaks of. A more thorough inspection may show this. Or I need to reread the article.Last edited by DesertBerean; 07-03-2020, 07:17 PM.Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette
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Originally posted by mikewhitney View PostIf you want to look at Judaism from a modern naturalistic perspective, the tribes of Israel were bloodthirsty. They are guilty of genocide.
However, the ancient Israelites were not Jews.
Originally posted by mikewhitney View PostThe other thing that has to be considered is that "leaders" among Christian groups can act bad without the general Christians being bad.
Originally posted by mikewhitney View PostAny evils done simply fall back on the humanity characteristics of all people -- the hearts set against God.
This happened among Jews too. You keep painting with a broad brush. You like to use the worst of ancient situations (probably many that were justifiable) to describe all Christians. There also Christian groups that did not participate in any power grabs.
Originally posted by mikewhitney View PostIf you misunderstand a math book, that does not mean that the math book was wrong. Your logic follows this path.
Originally posted by mikewhitney View PostI forget if I mentioned this. Many Jews recognized they were not right with God.
Originally posted by mikewhitney View PostThe lack of independence ... to rule on their own ... was recognized as the failure to be obedient to God.
Originally posted by mikewhitney View PostThis is why there were followers of the false Messiahs.
Originally posted by mikewhitney View PostThe timing of Daniel also pointed to that era for the arrival of the Messiah.
Originally posted by mikewhitney View PostSo indeed it was fully proper for the true Messiah, Jesus, to arrive at the right point in time.
Originally posted by mikewhitney View PostIt is only the disobedient part of Judaism that rejected Jesus as the Messiah in the first century. The obedient Jews acknowledged their sins and came to Jesus as the Messiah.
Originally posted by mikewhitney View PostThose who recognize Jesus as the Messiah also recognize Jesus fulfilled all the requirements
Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post-- even those which the Pharisees and other teachers added on to the list of requirements.
Originally posted by mikewhitney View PostThe preaching of Peter in Acts 2 is not an "apologetic" but is just a record of what Peter preached and how the people responded.
The Christian community in Acts continues the way Jesus himself had lived: truly Jewish, and at the same time, truly loyal towards Rome. Once we recognise this apologetic function in Acts we no longer need to worry about specific narrative details.
It can also clearly be seen that the author of Acts was a forthright and open apologist for Christianity."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Postnew Jews " would be Christians who rejected the Torah, which the essence of Judaism.
The Christian community in Acts continues the way Jesus himself had lived: truly Jewish, and at the same time, truly loyal towards Rome. Once we recognise this apologetic function in Acts we no longer need to worry about specific narrative details.
It can also clearly be seen that the author of Acts was a forthright and open apologist for Christianity.Last edited by mikewhitney; 07-03-2020, 08:19 PM.
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Originally posted by DesertBerean View PostAnd I'm questioning the Jews for Judaism claim that Christians did not consistently translate Daniel 9:25 as "anointed". a very quick skim of bibles at Bible Gateway show several translations that say "the anointed one" others say simply "Messiah". One modern english version say "God's chosen leader".
But of course that's the English versions....perhaps another language was used by the missionaries the writer speaks of. A more thorough inspection may show this. Or I need to reread the article.Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette
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