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Did the Jews really kill Jesus?

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  • Did the Jews really kill Jesus?

    For you, brothers {and sisters,} became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you suffered the same things from your own compatriots as they did from the Jews, who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out; they displease God and oppose everyone by hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. Thus they have constantly been filling up the measure of their sins; but God’s wrath has overtaken them at last.

    1st Thessalonians, 2: 14-16 (NRSV)


    This NT passage would appear to support the view that Paul himself actually believed that they did in fact do so, but is such a viewpoint historically credible?

    The statement is widely considered by many modern commentators and historians [quite correctly in my opinion] as a later interpolation into the original text of the letter - the mentioning of divine wrath upon the Jews being seen as a reference to the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of its temple by the Roman army in 70 CE - Paul being, in all probability, dead by this date.

    Does this extract merely reflect and lend credence to the markedly anti-Semitic tone of the gospel passion narratives, or was the historical situation in fact something rather different?

    Was the condemnation and execution of Jesus of Nazareth merely a routine Roman administrative process for dealing with messianic agitators accused of sedition or had this Galilean holy man committed any offence against Jewish religious law, and if he had done so, would a Roman military governor be cognisant of such matters?
    "It ain't necessarily so
    The things that you're liable
    To read in the Bible
    It ain't necessarily so
    ."

    Sportin' Life
    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

  • #2
    The other question to ask is whether Jews did anything to prevent the death of their Messiah. This is not an indictment against Jews of all ages, yet the question is still relevant for the first half of the first century.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
      The other question to ask is whether Jews did anything to prevent the death of their Messiah. This is not an indictment against Jews of all ages, yet the question is still relevant for the first half of the first century.
      For which you are relying solely on the four canonical gospels, presumably?
      "It ain't necessarily so
      The things that you're liable
      To read in the Bible
      It ain't necessarily so
      ."

      Sportin' Life
      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
        For which you are relying solely on the four canonical gospels, presumably?
        There's a whole Bible available.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
          There's a whole Bible available.
          The Hebrew bible does not deal with the execution of a first century Jew.
          "It ain't necessarily so
          The things that you're liable
          To read in the Bible
          It ain't necessarily so
          ."

          Sportin' Life
          Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

          Comment


          • #6
            Spoiler alert!


            He didn't stay dead.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              Spoiler alert!


              He didn't stay dead.
              That is a Christian belief. There is no evidence that it occurred.
              "It ain't necessarily so
              The things that you're liable
              To read in the Bible
              It ain't necessarily so
              ."

              Sportin' Life
              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                That is a Christian belief. There is no evidence that it occurred.
                A) Welcome to Tweb
                2) There is no evidence that you will accept.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  A) Welcome to Tweb
                  2) There is no evidence that you will accept.
                  Thank you. I think you will find there is no evidence, apart from the writing of Paul and of the later gospel writers.
                  "It ain't necessarily so
                  The things that you're liable
                  To read in the Bible
                  It ain't necessarily so
                  ."

                  Sportin' Life
                  Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                    Thank you. I think you will find there is no evidence, apart from the writing of Paul and of the later gospel writers.
                    If you were a sincere seeker, I'd love to have this conversation with you, as I have had with many others before.

                    Meanwhile, we best stop winking at one another, or somebody might get the wrong impression.
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      If you were a sincere seeker, I'd love to have this conversation with you, as I have had with many others before.
                      A seeker after what exactly? The history surrounding the execution of a messianic agitator in first century Judaea is remarkably straightforward.


                      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      Meanwhile, we best stop winking at one another, or somebody might get the wrong impression.
                      Then I recommend you do not make a habit of using that emoticon to comparative strangers.
                      "It ain't necessarily so
                      The things that you're liable
                      To read in the Bible
                      It ain't necessarily so
                      ."

                      Sportin' Life
                      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                        A seeker after what exactly?
                        Salvation.

                        The history surrounding the execution of a messianic agitator in first century Judaea is remarkably straightforward.
                        I'm aware of that perspective.

                        Then I recommend you do not make a habit of using that emoticon to comparative strangers.
                        I was kidding with you. My error.
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          Salvation.
                          Hmm salvation through dying and resurrected gods and salvation it has a long history


                          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          I'm aware of that perspective.
                          So, do you think the Jews killed Jesus?
                          "It ain't necessarily so
                          The things that you're liable
                          To read in the Bible
                          It ain't necessarily so
                          ."

                          Sportin' Life
                          Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                            Hmm salvation through dying and resurrected gods and salvation it has a long history


                            So, do you think the Jews killed Jesus?
                            As stated earlier, if I believed you to be a sincere seeker, I'd love to have this conversation.
                            I simply was wanting to welcome you to Tweb.

                            The welcome still stands.
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              As stated earlier, if I believed you to be a sincere seeker, I'd love to have this conversation.
                              From that I suspect you believe your gospel accounts that include charges of blasphemy and the wicked Jews plotting to kill Jesus.
                              "It ain't necessarily so
                              The things that you're liable
                              To read in the Bible
                              It ain't necessarily so
                              ."

                              Sportin' Life
                              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                              Comment

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