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Did the Jews really kill Jesus?

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  • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    The Israelites were bloodthirsty, as were most ancient Semitic peoples, and according to the Hebrew bible were guilty of quite a considerable amount of genocide that was ordained and approved of by their deity.

    However, the ancient Israelites were not Jews.

    That comment merely differentiates between practise and precept.

    I have no idea what you are attempting to suggest by these remarks.

    Mathematics is an exact science, theology is neither a science nor exact. Nor does history deal with exactitudes. History merely inquires in order to inform.
    What does this mean? It is a rather broad-brush approach towards a complex topic.

    This is all rather confusing. What historical periods are being referenced here?

    All the numerous messianic claimants failed in their objectives. They all ended up dead, either killed in battle or executed.

    The Book of Daniel belongs to the class of apocalyptic literature, and is dated to the Hellenistic period. Its eschatological speculations are not historical fact. In other words it is a work of Jewish religious literature.

    During the early first century there was a widespread belief among a large portion of the Jewish population that they were living in the End Times and Jesus himself appears to have shared this belief.

    This is merely your own subjective and theologically slanted interpretation.

    He did not fulfil any of the Messianic requirements and did not inaugurate the Messianic Kingdom of God as specified by Jewish teachings.

    Pardon? To what precisely are you referring? What requirements would these be?

    The work[s] Luke-Acts form an apologetic interpretation of the rise of early Christianity and attempts to harmonise the dissension and disagreements among the various factions within the movement, which we know were considerable.

    Acts propounds the legitimacy of Christianity as a largely gentile religion and as the valid heir to the promises God made to Israel. For a contemporary audience of observant Jews much of the work would be considered odious and its claims highly preposterous.

    However, Luke’s objective was to emphasise that God's fulfilment of the ancient promises had led to the inclusion of gentiles and his task in this work was to demonstrate that it was gentile Christianity which had become the legitimate inheritor of those old promises. Moreover, it was a specific form of gentile Christianity that would fulfil this role, and that was the work of the Pauline mission.

    In other words the "new Jews " would be Christians who rejected the Torah, which the essence of Judaism.

    The Christian community in Acts continues the way Jesus himself had lived: truly Jewish, and at the same time, truly loyal towards Rome. Once we recognise this apologetic function in Acts we no longer need to worry about specific narrative details.

    It can also clearly be seen that the author of Acts was a forthright and open apologist for Christianity.
    Wow.

    However, the ancient Israelites were not Jews.
    Do you mean before the birth of Judah?
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

    Comment


    • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
      Wow.

      Do you mean before the birth of Judah?
      See? She used the argument of many Jews expecting the Messiah so there was no actual Messiah. However, one stood out and is well remembered today, a king and priest named Jesus.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by DesertBerean View Post
        David's installment of Solomon as king and successor? I'm not sure I've encountered this as the Jewish idea of the Messiah. Source?
        For the term being used for an anointed king you could start here http://jewishencyclopedia.com/search...&commit=search

        I'd also advise you to read your bible.
        Last edited by Hypatia_Alexandria; 07-04-2020, 06:49 AM.
        "It ain't necessarily so
        The things that you're liable
        To read in the Bible
        It ain't necessarily so
        ."

        Sportin' Life
        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
          For the term being used for an anointed king you could start here http://jewishencyclopedia.com/search...&commit=search

          I'd also advise you to read your bible.
          And it all seems almost irrelevant.
          Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

          Comment


          • Originally posted by DesertBerean View Post
            And it all seems almost irrelevant.
            Hypatia missed seeing the focus of the discussion.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
              That is not the point at issue. Jewish messianism was appropriated by Christianity and adapted for its own specific theological purposes.

              You appear to have forgotten I Kings 1.32-46. That is the original meaning and understanding of Messiah [anointed].

              As a matter of interest how do you personally feel about Mormons, or some other group, coming into Christian communities and [as they do] attempting to proselytise? After all the Mormons have all the trappings of Christianity, not to mention a few of their own devising, I would suggest that you are perfectly justified in feeling a sense of outrage. Yet you appear surprised that Jews continue to feel aggrieved by Christian missionaries trying to do undermine the Jewish faith in a similar manner.
              The point that you evade is that your source has a vested interest in proclaiming that Jesus is not the Messiah and cherry picks their data to support their contention rather than fairly examining the evidence.

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post


                I'd also advise you to read your bible.


                Coming from someone who appears to get her information by skimming the Skeptics Annotated Bible

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  [ATTACH=CONFIG]46344[/ATTACH]


                  Coming from someone who appears to get her information by skimming the Skeptics Annotated Bible
                  I extend the offer that I made to Christian3, to you.
                  "It ain't necessarily so
                  The things that you're liable
                  To read in the Bible
                  It ain't necessarily so
                  ."

                  Sportin' Life
                  Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    The point that you evade is that your source has a vested interest in proclaiming that Jesus is not the Messiah and cherry picks their data to support their contention rather than fairly examining the evidence.
                    What arrogant effrontery. You have the temerity to suggest that the Jews do not understand their own religious texts. As a matter of interest, what precise “evidence ” are you referencing?

                    Concerning your accusation that the article “ cherry picks their data to support their contention” that is a tactic that Christian apologists have been employing for two millennia with regard to the Hebrew religious documents. Your religion has a long history of such behaviour, starting with Paul who of course never quotes the original Hebrew but always uses the Greek Septuagint translation.

                    Now, how do you personally feel about the Mormons telling you that your texts are wrong, that the Book of Mormon carries more authority than the New Testament, and that your religion has a “vested interest”?
                    "It ain't necessarily so
                    The things that you're liable
                    To read in the Bible
                    It ain't necessarily so
                    ."

                    Sportin' Life
                    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                      I'm not sure how to respond to your fantasy world. You should not even study these texts after you have become so disoriented. Your perspective is very weird and seems to discount all sensibility. You have created a scenario in your head that does not match anything of reality.
                      As you appear either unable or unwilling to address the points I have raised, it is duly noted that you have perforce resorted to a glib and facile ad hominem.
                      "It ain't necessarily so
                      The things that you're liable
                      To read in the Bible
                      It ain't necessarily so
                      ."

                      Sportin' Life
                      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                        See? She used the argument of many Jews expecting the Messiah so there was no actual Messiah. However, one stood out and is well remembered today, a king and priest named Jesus.
                        He was not a King, that he was acclaimed as one by his followers is why the Romans executed him.
                        "It ain't necessarily so
                        The things that you're liable
                        To read in the Bible
                        It ain't necessarily so
                        ."

                        Sportin' Life
                        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                          What arrogant effrontery. You have the temerity to suggest that the Jews do not understand their own religious texts. As a matter of interest, what precise “evidence ” are you referencing?

                          Concerning your accusation that the article “ cherry picks their data to support their contention” that is a tactic that Christian apologists have been employing for two millennia with regard to the Hebrew religious documents. Your religion has a long history of such behaviour, starting with Paul who of course never quotes the original Hebrew but always uses the Greek Septuagint translation.

                          Now, how do you personally feel about the Mormons telling you that your texts are wrong, that the Book of Mormon carries more authority than the New Testament, and that your religion has a “vested interest”?
                          What a twit. Hiding behind faux outrage to avoid the fact that your cited source, which is dedicated to keeping Jews from converting, would be an unbiased source.

                          And Paul was speaking primarily to Greek speakers so it is hardly a shock that he would use a Greek translation.

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                            Do you mean before the birth of Judah?
                            If you are referring to the personage we find in Genesis that character is mythical, rather like Gilgamesh, Siegfried, or Odysseus.
                            "It ain't necessarily so
                            The things that you're liable
                            To read in the Bible
                            It ain't necessarily so
                            ."

                            Sportin' Life
                            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                              What a twit. Hiding behind faux outrage to avoid the fact that your cited source, which is dedicated to keeping Jews from converting, would be an unbiased source.
                              Ad hominem duly noted.

                              I did not use either the word biased or the word unbiased.

                              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                              And Paul was speaking primarily to Greek speakers so it is hardly a shock that he would use a Greek translation.
                              It is surprising for someone who boasted he was a Pharisee and whom [so we are told by the writer of Acts] studied with Gamaliel.

                              Now what is your view of the Book of Mormon being acclaimed as superseding the New Testament? You appear remarkably reluctant to address the point I made to you concerning your own religious texts.
                              Last edited by Hypatia_Alexandria; 07-05-2020, 12:16 PM.
                              "It ain't necessarily so
                              The things that you're liable
                              To read in the Bible
                              It ain't necessarily so
                              ."

                              Sportin' Life
                              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                                It is surprising for someone who boasted he was a Pharisee and whom [so we are told by the writer of Acts] studied with Gamaliel.
                                ?????? They translated their scriptures into Greek.
                                Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

                                Comment

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