Originally posted by Dan Zebiri
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Did the Jews really kill Jesus?
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No, the Wiki article concerned quoted skeptics JD Crossan and Bart Erhman and their documented sources. Which rejected the conjectures of interpolation regarding Tacitus references to Jesus, His Crucifixion and the early church's eyewitnesses declarations about the above.
Infantile nonsense? LOL! That is a perfect description of your speculative nonsense, really, more than anything else! Keep it up, my girl 😂👏🤯
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostBased on a Wiki article?
Infantile nonsense.
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Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View PostIndeed, Christian3. Someone give her a time machine, quickly!Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette
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Originally posted by Christian3 View PostMara Bar-Serapion, of Syria, writing between 70 and 200 AD from prison to motivate his son to emulate wise teachers of the past:
"What advantage did the Athenians gain from putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as a judgment for their crime. What advantage did the men of Samos gain from burying Pythagoras? In a moment their land was covered with sand. What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise king? It was just after that that their kingdom was abolished. God justly avenged these three wise men: the Athenians died of hunger; the Samians were overwhelmed by the sea; the Jews, ruined and driven from their land, live in complete dispersion. But Socrates did not die for good; he lived on in the teaching of Plato. Pythagoras did not die for good; he lived on in the statue of Hera. Nor did the wise king die for good; he lived on in the teaching which he had given.""It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View PostNo, the Wiki article concerned quoted skeptics JD Crossan and Bart Erhman and their documented sources.
Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View PostWhich rejected the conjectures of interpolation regarding Tacitus references to Jesus, His Crucifixion and the early church's eyewitnesses declarations about the above.
Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View PostInfantile nonsense? LOL! That is a perfect description of your speculative nonsense, really, more than anything else! Keep it up, my girl 😂👏🤯"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Skeptical Biblical scholar Bart D. Ehrman wrote: "Tacitus's report confirms what we know from other sources, that Jesus was executed by order of the Roman governor of Judea, Pontius Pilate, sometime during Tiberius's reign."
- Ehrman, Bart D. (2001). Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium. Oxford University Press. p. 59. ISBN 978-0195124743.
Another skeptic but celebrated scholar from the Jesus Seminar, John D.Crossan considers the Tacitus passage important in establishing that Jesus existed and was crucified, and states:
"That he was crucified is as sure as anything historical can ever be, since both Josephus and Tacitus... agree with the Christian accounts on at least that basic fact."
- Crossan, John Dominic (1995). Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography. HarperOne. ISBN 0-06-061662-8 page 145.
John P. Meier states that there is no historical or archaeological evidence to support the argument that a scribe may have introduced the passage into the text.
- From John P. Meier, A Marginal Jew: Rethinking the Historical Jesus, Doubleday: 1991. vol 1: p. 168-171.
Paul Eddy and Gregory Boyd argue that it is "firmly established" that Tacitus provides a non-Christian confirmation of the crucifixion of Jesus.
Suggestions that the whole of Annals by Tacitus may have been a forgery have also been generally rejected by both conservative and skeptical scholars and their studied conclusion.
What you wish as "their opinions" are merely also your wishful thinking any more than are your anti-Christian assertions that color so much of your opinions and speculative attempts to "de-construct Christianity" and destroy it. So desperately passionate..and also so misled.
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostThose are their opinions with regard to this.
I do not think either Ehrman or Crossan consider that the four canonical gospels were written by eyewitnesses to the crucifixion.
Well sonny, the fact remains that we cannot know with any certainty if this section, as it has come down to us, was originally composed by Tacitus.
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Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View PostSkeptical Biblical scholar Bart D. Ehrman wrote: "Tacitus's report confirms what we know from other sources, that Jesus was executed by order of the Roman governor of Judea, Pontius Pilate, sometime during Tiberius's reign."
- Ehrman, Bart D. (2001). Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium. Oxford University Press. p. 59. ISBN 978-0195124743.
Another skeptic but celebrated scholar from the Jesus Seminar, John D.Crossan considers the Tacitus passage important in establishing that Jesus existed and was crucified, and states:
"That he was crucified is as sure as anything historical can ever be, since both Josephus and Tacitus... agree with the Christian accounts on at least that basic fact."
- Crossan, John Dominic (1995). Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography. HarperOne. ISBN 0-06-061662-8 page 145.
John P. Meier states that there is no historical or archaeological evidence to support the argument that a scribe may have introduced the passage into the text.
- From John P. Meier, A Marginal Jew: Rethinking the Historical Jesus, Doubleday: 1991. vol 1: p. 168-171.
Paul Eddy and Gregory Boyd argue that it is "firmly established" that Tacitus provides a non-Christian confirmation of the crucifixion of Jesus.
Suggestions that the whole of Annals by Tacitus may have been a forgery have also been generally rejected by both conservative and skeptical scholars and their studied conclusion.
What you wish as "their opinions" are merely also your wishful thinking any more than are your anti-Christian assertions that color so much of your opinions and speculative attempts to "de-construct Christianity" and destroy it. So desperately passionate..and also so misled.
I am not emphatically stating that either Ehrman or Crossan are wrong I have made it quite clear, we simply do not know. I repeat there are question marks over this section and there are other equally well qualified academics whose opinions do not agree with either Crossan or Ehrman. So who is right?"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Christian3 View PostWhat advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise king?
Your remark is a both a libel and gross calumny against the Jewish people. For upward of seventeen hundred years the Christian church and its adherents has used those malicious lies to persecute the Jews as Deicides and Christ Killers."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostHow amusing that you vehemently defend these academics' opinions on one issue when those coincide with your religious beliefs. However, neither Ehrman nor Crossan hold to your views on the "eyewitnesses" for the crucifixion.
I am not emphatically stating that either Ehrman or Crossan are wrong I have made it quite clear, we simply do not know. I repeat there are question marks over this section and there are other equally well qualified academics whose opinions do not agree with either Crossan or Ehrman. So who is right?
1) They provided information from academically recognized experts to show there is competent belief that Tacitus's statement is authentic as is. Your reply of "oh you silly people" is hardly a rational reply.
2) You started this topic. You must have expected people to respond with their OPINIONS. Opinions were indeed provided and some also showed sound backups for their responses.Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostClearly Jesus was not the Messiah, the anointed King, as he did not bring about the Kingdom of God.
There is a one hour video with a lecture about how the Apostle Paul invented Christian theology, which I came across, thinking of some of your comments.
2 Corinthians 5:17, ". . . Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. . . ."
1 Corinthians 2:16, ". . . But we have the mind of Christ. . . ."
Romans 12:2, ". . . And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. . . ."Last edited by 37818; 06-27-2020, 01:48 PM.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostIf you all actually read that Wiki article you would find that scholarly consensus is not as “cut and dried” as your comments to one another indicate.
As you seem predisposed to Wiki articles, Rational Wiki gives more detail. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Tacitus
Their principle argument seems to be the paucity of contemporaneous accounts of Nero's persecution of Christians for the burning of Rome and they use that to base a claim that the passage is a later interpolation.
What this argument overlooks is that we have lost a massive number of works that were very famous and repeatedly copied. For instance we only have 6 out of at least 90 of Aeschylus' plays. Similarly only 7 of Sophocles' 123 plays still exist. They are and were so well-regarded that both of their works are still being performed today.
It is thought that today we only have roughly a third of Aristotle's works. Probably most famously his Poetics (dealing with comedy) which is the missing work at the center of Umberto Eco' excellent novel, The Name of the Rose. Considering how highly regarded Aristotle was by medieval and Renaissance Christians (especially in the West) the fact that so much has been lost can hardly be blamed on Christians seeking to destroy pagan works.
Even many of the works written by Emperors and the like have been lost and you know darn well these were repeatedly copied and shipped all over the Roman Empire. And for the few that are still extant, nearly all of the earliest copies come from several centuries later. For instance, the earliest copy of Julius Caesar's Commentarii de Bello Gallico ("The Gallic Wars") date from something like nearly 800 years after the original was written.
And then there is the 79 AD eruption of Mt. Vesuvius, which annihilated several Roman cities including Pompeii and Herculaneum, and was witnessed by the tens of thousands of eyewitnesses in and around Naples but is only mentioned by one near contemporary account -- that of Pliny the Younger. Keep in mind that Naples had a reputation during Greco-Roman times as being an area with a highly literate population so we should have a slew of eyewitness reports in our hands not just one. And, IIRC, Pliny's account, written some 30 years later, was spurred on in reaction to Tacitus' Histories.
The point being, is that this argument is a non-starter.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostThat is what you think. All of us who know God through the belief inJesus as the Messiah know better.
There is a one hour video with a lecture about how the Apostle Paul invented Christian theology, which I came across, thinking of some of your comments.
2 Corinthians 5:17, ". . . Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. . . ."
1 Corinthians 2:16, ". . . But we have the mind of Christ. . . ."
Romans 12:2, ". . . And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. . . ."Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostAt least I felt embarrassed at citing Wikipedia but you show no shame turning to Rational Wiki"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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