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Did the Jews really kill Jesus?

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  • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    The Jewish people understood their own theology quite well.


    Later Pauline theology.

    We know what the Kingdom of God would have meant to first century Jews living under foreign domination and we know why anyone claiming, or being acclaimed as, the Messiah was regarded by the Roman authorities as potential trouble.

    You seem to either not know or forget that there had been other Messianic movements originating in the countryside in that region and nor were some of these movements in the early years of the first century easily subdued. At least one, led by Athronges, a shepherd, took quite some time for either the Roman or Herodian troops to eventually suppress it.

    Neither was that the only messianic movement occurring in the years surrounding the approximate dates for Jesus’ birth. In the late first century BCE and early first century CE there were several mass movements of Jewish peasants who came from villages or towns such as Emmaus, Bethlehem, and Sepphoris. These people rallied to the leadership of charismatic figures who were viewed as “anointed kings of the Jews”. These popular uprisings occurred in all three provincial areas of Jewish settlement in Palestine (i.e. Galilee, Perea, and Judaea).

    Sepphoris, a few miles north of Nazareth, had been burned in 4 BCE and its inhabitants sold into slavery; while Emmaus, which is one of the locations for the resurrection appearances according to Luke, had likewise been destroyed by the Romans for another mass uprising, barely a generation later. [See: R.A. Horsley & J.S. Hanson Bandits, Prophets, and Messiahs: Popular Movements in the Time of Jesus ]
    I am amazed by your answer. Oh well.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
      I am amazed by your answer. Oh well.
      My reply may amaze you but I cited known historical events.
      "It ain't necessarily so
      The things that you're liable
      To read in the Bible
      It ain't necessarily so
      ."

      Sportin' Life
      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
        From my reading.
        Where did you read it.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
          My reply may amaze you but I cited known historical events.
          I don't think that is what mike meant.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
            Where did you read it.
            Dear Christian3

            Should you require a reading list please let me know.

            Best wishes

            H_A
            "It ain't necessarily so
            The things that you're liable
            To read in the Bible
            It ain't necessarily so
            ."

            Sportin' Life
            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
              I don't think that is what mike meant.
              I only know what Mike wrote and can only respond to that.
              "It ain't necessarily so
              The things that you're liable
              To read in the Bible
              It ain't necessarily so
              ."

              Sportin' Life
              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                To a first century Jew the Kingdom of God would have been a theocratic state with an anointed king under god, and with no infidel Romans.
                You might find the following lecture from N.T. Wright interesting:

                https://ntwrightpage.com/2016/07/12/...g-the-kingdom/

                Comment


                • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  I loathe citing Wikipedia for something like this but it isn't like the above deserves better

                  Source: Tacitus on Christ


                  The scholarly consensus is that Tacitus' reference to the execution of Jesus by Pontius Pilate is both authentic, and of historical value as an independent Roman source.[5][6][7] Paul Eddy and Gregory Boyd argue that it is "firmly established" that Tacitus provides a non-Christian confirmation of the crucifixion of Jesus.[8] Scholars view it as establishing three separate facts about Rome around AD 60: (i) that there were a sizable number of Christians in Rome at the time, (ii) that it was possible to distinguish between Christians and Jews in Rome, and (iii) that at the time pagans made a connection between Christianity in Rome and its origin in Roman Judea.[9][10]




                  Source

                  © Copyright Original Source

                  Only for the fact that the Romans executed Jesus by crucifixion for rebellion against Rome. That was not in doubt.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
                    You might find the following lecture from N.T. Wright interesting:

                    https://ntwrightpage.com/2016/07/12/...g-the-kingdom/
                    What a fitting name for a New testament scholar.

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
                      You might find the following lecture from N.T. Wright interesting:

                      https://ntwrightpage.com/2016/07/12/...g-the-kingdom/
                      I would not consider NT Wright an unbiased source.
                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                        I would not consider NT Wright an unbiased source.
                        Unless you can actually demonstrate that it is leading him to make erroneous conclusions NT Wright's bias is irrelevant.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                          Unless you can actually demonstrate that it is leading him to make erroneous conclusions NT Wright's bias is irrelevant.
                          Shuny is always looking for an excuse to hand wave off anything he doesn't like rather than actually look at the argument and evidence and attempt to rebut it.

                          Now, if the argument reveals that personal beliefs and biases are causing the person to present a faulty line of reasoning, or cherry pick evidence and the like, by all means point it out. And be precise. Not just a vague, general statement.

                          After that you can fairly dismiss the source. But doing so preemptively, without bothering to even so much as glance or skim over what they say is just improper and inappropriate.

                          And, btw, I'll be the first to acknowledge that I tend to do the latter as well from time to time. Actually, more often than I probably realize. Often it is just a time issue and I figure that I can elaborate if asked/challenged. And of course at other times I'm just being lazy.

                          Still, it is best to strive to not summarily dismiss something without giving a valid reason for doing so.

                          And, no, saying they suck, that their RWNJs, or whatever doesn't cut it.

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                            My reply may amaze you but I cited known historical events.
                            This is like the argument someone made to say that God doesn't exist. He had said all people in ancient times had a religion with gods in them, so God does not exist.

                            You are saying that since everyone among the Jews was expecting the Messiah to come around that time, that Jesus is not the Messiah. This was the time prophesied for the Messiah and Jesus came, who also was differentiated from other claims. Jesus proved to be the Messiah as we see by other prophesies and by resurrection. (No other messianic claims resulted in resurrection of that person.) You have to at least discuss some things within the record or you just lose all credibility.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                              You are saying that since everyone among the Jews was expecting the Messiah to come around that time, that Jesus is not the Messiah.
                              Not all Jews. The Sadduceean aristocracy and the Herodians had a rather different agenda. A theocracy under god with an anointed King would [to employ a phrase] put a spanner in their works!

                              Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                              This was the time prophesied for the Messiah and Jesus came, who also was differentiated from other claims. Jesus proved to be the Messiah as we see by other prophesies and by resurrection. (No other messianic claims resulted in resurrection of that person.)
                              This is all later Christian apologetics. The Jewish Messiah was not expected to be staked up by the Romans. To use a line from a book “ A Jewish criminal executed by Rome. What’s that for a God?” [See Colin Thubron Emperor]

                              Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                              You have to at least discuss some things within the record or you just lose all credibility.
                              What record?
                              "It ain't necessarily so
                              The things that you're liable
                              To read in the Bible
                              It ain't necessarily so
                              ."

                              Sportin' Life
                              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                                Not all Jews. The Sadduceean aristocracy and the Herodians had a rather different agenda. A theocracy under god with an anointed King would [to employ a phrase] put a spanner in their works!

                                This is all later Christian apologetics. The Jewish Messiah was not expected to be staked up by the Romans. To use a line from a book “ A Jewish criminal executed by Rome. What’s that for a God?” [See Colin Thubron Emperor]

                                What record?
                                You are getting back into semantics. You do that when you have no argument.

                                Comment

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