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Did the Jews really kill Jesus?

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  • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    "For you have heard of my former life in Judaism"


    How else would you take that but as his being Jewish? While he was now a Christian and no longer lived "in Judaism" he was still Jewish.
    Once a Jew, always a Jew???

    That appears to be an assumption based on apologetic necessity, and little else. I'm perfectly open to something more substantial, though, if you've got it...

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Whateverman View Post
      Once a Jew, always a Jew???

      That appears to be an assumption based on apologetic necessity, and little else. I'm perfectly open to something more substantial, though, if you've got it...
      As long as you don't confuse Jewishness with adhering to Judaism, and define Jewishness according to biological descent, yes, once a Jew, always a Jew. As far as I'm aware, Jews who abandoned Judaism were not considered to have stopped being Jews, but were instead considered faithless Jews that needed to be brought back into the fold by other Jews. Hence why Paul according to his own words was so insistent on persecuting the early Jewish Christians.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
        The lack of Jewish response was noted by Paul and by prophecy. So you are confirming prophecy here.
        I believe the lack of Jewish response is simply a fact of history, and not prophecy. They could do nothing concerning the execution and crucifixion of Jesus if they wanted to, which the Jews would not remotely support a rebel Jew without an army claiming to be their King
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
          I believe the lack of Jewish response is simply a fact of history, and not prophecy. They could do nothing concerning the execution and crucifixion of Jesus if they wanted to, which the Jews would not remotely support a rebel Jew without an army claiming to be their King
          The problem with your theory is that it is inconsistent with so many things.
          Paul would not be sad about his countrymen not responding to the gospel, as seen in Rom 9-11.
          Paul would not be emphasizing that his ministry was to make Jews jealous and reponsive to the gospel.
          Prophecy would not have needed to point to the lack of response. Isa 10:20-22
          Moses would not have needed to make a song Deut 32:19-22

          A bunch of things have to be wrong for you to be right.
          Last edited by mikewhitney; 06-23-2020, 08:33 PM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
            The problem with your theory is that it is inconsistent with so many things.
            Not inconsistent with the history of Judaism and their beliefs.

            Paul would not be sad about his countrymen not responding to the gospel, as seen in Rom 9-11.
            Paul would not be emphasizing that his ministry was to make Jews jealous and reponsive to the gospel.
            Paul's response is just his response concerning what he believed, nothing more.

            Prophecy would not have needed to point to the lack of response. Isa 10:20-22
            A long stretch of interpretation, of course not accepted by Jews and in their own language, which they do not remotely accept the Christian interpretation of their scriptures..
            Moses would not have needed to make a song Deut 32:19-22

            A bunch of things have to be wrong for you to be right.
            No simply based on the facts of history and history and belief of Judaism. Just because Christians believe as they do and interpret Jewish scripture to justify their belief does not make it true.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
              Not inconsistent with the history of Judaism and their beliefs.



              Paul's response is just his response concerning what he believed, nothing more.



              A long stretch of interpretation, of course not accepted by Jews and in their own language, which they do not remotely accept the Christian interpretation of their scriptures..
              Moses would not have needed to make a song Deut 32:19-22



              No simply based on the facts of history and history and belief of Judaism. Just because Christians believe as they do and interpret Jewish scripture to justify their belief does not make it true.
              Hmm. Do I listen to God and scripture or do I listen to Shuny's inconsistent beliefs? Like I mentioned. Scripture speaks against your modernist trust of your opinion.

              We know that Jews were evaluating their own lack of obedience to God. So it totally makes sense that God sent their Messiah, as promised.

              You are simply asserting, out of thin air, that the Messiah is not the Messiah. Why do you even think you should go with the non-Messianic view of Judaism instead of the Messianic Judaism? You have to deny much of scripture to do that. And what interpretation do you think out does the fulfillment of prophecy which occurred?
              Last edited by mikewhitney; 06-23-2020, 09:13 PM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                The problem with your theory is that it is inconsistent with so many things.
                Regarding the situation in Judaea in the first half of the first century CE he is absolutely correct. The Jews had no power to execute for capital crimes. That power rested solely with the Praefectus and claiming, or being acclaimed, to have Messianic status was a capital offence.
                "It ain't necessarily so
                The things that you're liable
                To read in the Bible
                It ain't necessarily so
                ."

                Sportin' Life
                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Whateverman View Post
                  Once a Jew, always a Jew???
                  A Jew can be a Jew because he/she...

                  A) Was born in Israel - nationality
                  2) Was born to a Jewish woman - relationally
                  C) Practices Judaism - religiously
                  E) Converts to Judaism - also religiously

                  My Jewish friend, born in Israel, preaches the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but is still very much a Jew.

                  That appears to be an assumption based on apologetic necessity, and little else. I'm perfectly open to something more substantial, though, if you've got it...
                  How's that so far?
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                    Regarding the situation in Judaea in the first half of the first century CE he is absolutely correct. The Jews had no power to execute for capital crimes. That power rested solely with the Praefectus and claiming, or being acclaimed, to have Messianic status was a capital offence.
                    I was mostly responding to Shuny saying
                    I believe the lack of Jewish response is simply a fact of history, and not prophecy.
                    To your response, we see how the Jews selected Jesus rather than Barabbas. The chants of the people can have great influence.

                    The preaching in Acts 2, the wording was specific
                    and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know— 23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.
                    You miss the concept of the preaching here (or do you?). There was consent and demand of many Jews to crucify Jesus.
                    The message here was about the consent of the people to what happened more than individual participation. The message was about the general lack of acknowledgement of Jesus as Messiah and the general disregard of his message, which should have led people to promote his status and reputation.

                    This preaching was more an appeal to the people to recognize their attitude against their Messiah rather than saying that all Jews participated in killing their Messiah. The message obviously was a collective you rather than accusing each person specifically.

                    So, in some sense, it is reasonable to say they killed Jesus. However, this message is probably not proper to use as an indictment of all Jews, who heard this message, of having direct participation in the assassination of Jesus. In this sense, the message was focused on an awaking to what just happened and to their hearts.

                    I do not agree with using this verse to declare all Jews as murderers of Jesus. Maybe your point in raising the question has been that we should not make such a declaration.
                    Last edited by mikewhitney; 06-24-2020, 11:51 AM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post

                      To your response, we see how the Jews selected Jesus rather than Barabbas. The chants of the people can have great influence.
                      The Passover Amnesty is a fiction.

                      Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                      The preaching in Acts 2, the wording was specific
                      That and other anti-Judaic/Semitic verses in various NT texts led to seventeen hundred years of the Christian church, and its adherents, persecuting the Jewish people.


                      Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                      IYou miss the concept of the preaching here (or do you?). There was consent and demand of many Jews to crucify Jesus.
                      On what extraneous contemporary evidence?

                      All you are citing is the "evidence" of the four canonical gospels.

                      To attempt some understanding of why those documents [the earliest being Mark] came to make that libel has to be understood in the context of when those texts came to be written and the impact of the First Jewish War.
                      "It ain't necessarily so
                      The things that you're liable
                      To read in the Bible
                      It ain't necessarily so
                      ."

                      Sportin' Life
                      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                        The Passover Amnesty is a fiction.

                        That and other anti-Judaic/Semitic verses in various NT texts led to seventeen hundred years of the Christian church, and its adherents, persecuting the Jewish people.


                        On what extraneous contemporary evidence?

                        All you are citing is the "evidence" of the four canonical gospels.

                        To attempt some understanding of why those documents [the earliest being Mark] came to make that libel has to be understood in the context of when those texts came to be written and the impact of the First Jewish War.
                        Ahem. How much extraneous evidence do you expect to find about this trial?

                        The events among the Jews and the trial of Jesus was supposed to be insignificant to the Roman leaders. It hardly is expected that the records would note that "we crucified Jesus but this failed because he was raised again." Nor would the Jews who rejected their Messiah likely be inclined to say "we rejected our Messiah even after he was raised from the dead."

                        You are holding to conspiracy theories to discredit the gospel accounts. There are four separate accounts. Four witnesses are usually sufficient to determine cases in court. Three witnesses are sufficient. Four accounts should suffice for historical accounts too -- though there is a bias to disregard the whole account based on the presence of miracles and prophecy. But the gospels are situated well within the context of history which distinguishes the gospels from Greek mythology.

                        I'm not sure what your animosity is toward Christianity to lead you to be an anti-evangelist. Christians are not inherently or generally inclined to demean Jews as a people. However, the Christians still rejoice when Jews come to know the Messiah.

                        You could try to use your skills against Islam or against Hinduism. I'm not sure the reason for your fixation on work of our Lord and Creator.
                        Last edited by mikewhitney; 06-24-2020, 01:02 PM.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                          The Passover Amnesty is a fiction.

                          That and other anti-Judaic/Semitic verses in various NT texts led to seventeen hundred years of the Christian church, and its adherents, persecuting the Jewish people.
                          If this is just documenting what Peter preached, then it is hardly anti-Jewish. There is no accounts that I know of where we find testimony that Peter was anti-Jewish or that the writers of the New Testament were against Jews -- except Jews taking actions against the Church. You have said that we just have interpretations of these texts ... so what makes you consistent in saying that these texts are intrinsically anti-Jewish?

                          It is hardly accurate to say that anti-Jewish sentiments are central to Christianity across this time. Conflicts have gone all sorts of directions -- for example there is a history why Christians and Roman Catholics haven't gotten along. There are places (like America now) where attacks are turned upon Christians (and most religions) in America. Many Christians today are pro-Israel. There were Jews attacking followers of Christ. Islam fighters have gone against Christians. There are many present-day atheists who are anti-Christian.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                            If this is just documenting what Peter preached, then it is hardly anti-Jewish.
                            This is merely "documenting" Christian apologetics in the late first/early second century. It is tendentious and attempts to portray an uniformity and cohesiveness that did not at that time exist.

                            I repeat that there are various verses [this amongst them] within the New Testament that are anti-Judaic/Semitic and these verses led to seventeen hundred years of the Christian church, and its adherents, persecuting the Jews as the "Christ killers" and Deicides. These are undeniable facts.
                            "It ain't necessarily so
                            The things that you're liable
                            To read in the Bible
                            It ain't necessarily so
                            ."

                            Sportin' Life
                            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                              Ahem. How much extraneous evidence do you expect to find about this trial?
                              In order to have any informed opinion about this matter we have to it put it back into its contemporary historical context with what we know of Roman provincial administration in the early first century.

                              Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                              The events among the Jews and the trial of Jesus was supposed to be insignificant to the Roman leaders.
                              Someone suspected of messianic aspirations arriving in Jerusalem with a crowd of supporters shortly before a major Jewish festival was not of insignificance to the Roman authorities. Such an event could possibly precipitate a serious insurrection.

                              Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                              It hardly is expected that the records would note that "we crucified Jesus but this failed because he was raised again
                              As far as the Roman authorities were concerned, do you really imagine that the arraignment and execution of yet another lower class Jewish dissident would have been of any contemporary importance? In 9 BCE Varus [the Roman governor of Syria] had crucified 2000 Jewish rebels. In 6 CE Judas of Gamala and other leaders of a second rebellion had been crucified. Many more Jews would suffer the same fate at the hands of later Roman officials long after Jesus’ death.

                              Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                              Nor would the Jews who rejected their Messiah likely be inclined to say "we rejected our Messiah even after he was raised from the dead."
                              If contemporary Jews did believe Jesus to be the Jewish Messiah, that is, the anointed King, he singularly failed to bring about the Kingdom of God as was expectes.
                              Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                              You are holding to conspiracy theories to discredit the gospel accounts.
                              There are no conspiracy theories. These texts and what they allege have to be viewed within the known historical situation. Nor are the gospels strictly historical records, as they make no inquiry into the events being described. They are written to bear witness, which is a completely different matter.

                              Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                              There are four separate accounts. Four witnesses are usually sufficient to determine cases in court. Three witnesses are sufficient
                              These gospels were not written by “eye witnesses” as is self evident from their internal contradictions and improbabilities.

                              Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                              . Four accounts should suffice for historical accounts too
                              I repeat these are not historical records in our modern understanding of the term. These four canonical gospels are forms of sacred biography written to disseminate the teachings of their respective Christian communities, inculcate faith, and instruct proselytes.

                              Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                              . -- though there is a bias to disregard the whole account based on the presence of miracles and prophecy.
                              Prophecy and miracles can play no part in any objective, rational historical inquiry.

                              Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                              . But the gospels are situated well within the context of history which distinguishes the gospels from Greek mythology.
                              In point of fact, within the four canonical gospels one may discern many analogous themes found within Greek mythology.
                              "It ain't necessarily so
                              The things that you're liable
                              To read in the Bible
                              It ain't necessarily so
                              ."

                              Sportin' Life
                              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                                Hmm. Do I listen to God and scripture or do I listen to Shuny's inconsistent beliefs? Like I mentioned. Scripture speaks against your modernist trust of your opinion.

                                We know that Jews were evaluating their own lack of obedience to God. So it totally makes sense that God sent their Messiah, as promised.

                                You are simply asserting, out of thin air, that the Messiah is not the Messiah. Why do you even think you should go with the non-Messianic view of Judaism instead of the Messianic Judaism? You have to deny much of scripture to do that. And what interpretation do you think out does the fulfillment of prophecy which occurred?
                                No I am not asserting that Jesus Christ is not the Messiah. I am arguing from the Jewish perspective on the life and death of Jesus Christ that is simply the facts of history without prejudice of any religious perspective as per the subject of the thread. You on the other hand fault the Jews for not stopping the execution of Jesus Christ, which is something they were unable to do regardless.
                                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                                Frank

                                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                                Comment

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