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Did the Jews really kill Jesus?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    From that I suspect you believe your gospel accounts that include charges of blasphemy and the wicked Jews plotting to kill Jesus.
    Have a wonderful day.
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      Have a wonderful day.
      I am sure I will.
      "It ain't necessarily so
      The things that you're liable
      To read in the Bible
      It ain't necessarily so
      ."

      Sportin' Life
      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

      Comment


      • #18
        Moderated By: Sparko

        Moved to Apologetics

        ***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
        Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publicly complain or whine, please take it to the Padded Room unless told otherwise.


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        • #19
          Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
          I am sure I will.
          So, did you?
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #20
            I thoroughly enjoyed the rest of the weekend yes. How about you?
            "It ain't necessarily so
            The things that you're liable
            To read in the Bible
            It ain't necessarily so
            ."

            Sportin' Life
            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
              I thoroughly enjoyed the rest of the weekend yes. How about you?
              If I'd have known grandkids would be so much fun, we would have had the first. Yes, a very fun weekend.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                If I'd have known grandkids would be so much fun, we would have had the first. Yes, a very fun weekend.
                Don't have any myself so can't comment. Still good to hear you enjoyed yourself.
                "It ain't necessarily so
                The things that you're liable
                To read in the Bible
                It ain't necessarily so
                ."

                Sportin' Life
                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                Comment


                • #23
                  Did the Jews really kill Jesus?
                  In the gospel account attributied to John, John 10:18, to the words of Jesus, ". . . No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. . . ."

                  Now in the book of Acts attributed to the writter Luke, cites Peter, verse 4, regarding a man healed, Acts 4:10, ". . . Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. . . ."

                  While it is true the Jews truly are credited with Jesus being killed. But did they kill Jesus? The answer is no.

                  And this much you have correct, the New Testament documents are the main source evidence for the resurrected Jesus as the Christ. But not the sole evidence.










                  . . ."
                  Last edited by 37818; 06-16-2020, 02:11 PM.
                  . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                  . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                  Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                    The other question to ask is whether Jews did anything to prevent the death of their Messiah. This is not an indictment against Jews of all ages, yet the question is still relevant for the first half of the first century.
                    I believe it is clear that Jesus Christ was convicted of a crime of rebellion against Rome claiming to be the King of the Jews. The punishment of crucifixion is the Roman punishment for that crime. Jesus was not the only one convicted and executed by crucifixion for rebellion against Rome. Of course, the Jews would not prevent the execution of Jesus Christ, because they did not believe he was the Messiah, and considered him a heretic
                    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                    go with the flow the river knows . . .

                    Frank

                    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                      I believe it is clear that Jesus Christ was convicted of a crime of rebellion against Rome claiming to be the King of the Jews. The punishment of crucifixion is the Roman punishment for that crime. Jesus was not the only one convicted and executed by crucifixion for rebellion against Rome. Of course, the Jews would not prevent the execution of Jesus Christ, because they did not believe he was the Messiah, and considered him a heretic
                      Right. And that generation of Jews suffered for their mistake. And the Roman Empire suffered for doing this.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                        For you, brothers {and sisters,} became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you suffered the same things from your own compatriots as they did from the Jews, who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out; they displease God and oppose everyone by hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. Thus they have constantly been filling up the measure of their sins; but God’s wrath has overtaken them at last.

                        1st Thessalonians, 2: 14-16 (NRSV)

                        Does this extract merely reflect and lend credence to the markedly anti-Semitic tone of the gospel passion narratives, or was the historical situation in fact something rather different?
                        But the gospels are not anti-Semitic, they have Jewish roots, and mostly Jewish authors, as Paul was also himself a Jew. "The Jews" here and in John in particular is a short-hand way of referring to the leaders of the Jewish nation, and their followers.

                        Blessings,
                        Lee
                        "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                          I believe it is clear that Jesus Christ was convicted of a crime of rebellion against Rome claiming to be the King of the Jews. The punishment of crucifixion is the Roman punishment for that crime. Jesus was not the only one convicted and executed by crucifixion for rebellion against Rome. Of course, the Jews would not prevent the execution of Jesus Christ, because they did not believe he was the Messiah, and considered him a heretic
                          Correct. Being acclaimed as, or claiming Messianic status, was punishable by crucifixion, and we know there had been Messianic uprisings among the rural populations in the region from the late first century CE, all of which had been brutally suppressed. And of course other men would come after Jesus and also be proclaimed as the Messiah by their supporters.

                          Just as a point of clarification the Jews could not have prevented Jesus' execution. The Roman Praefectus was the supreme judicial authority in Judaea, and only he had the power to deal with capital crimes.
                          "It ain't necessarily so
                          The things that you're liable
                          To read in the Bible
                          It ain't necessarily so
                          ."

                          Sportin' Life
                          Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                            Right. And that generation of Jews suffered for their mistake. And the Roman Empire suffered for doing this.
                            I am not sure how you consider it was that "generation of Jews" that suffered [I am assuming that you regard the outcome of the First Jewish War as some sort of divine retribution on the Jews for denying the Messiah].

                            If we assume Jesus' execution to have been no later than 36 CE [and probably around 30 CE] then the generation of Jews who took part in the 66 CE rebellion would have been very young children or babes in arms when Jesus was executed. If indeed, some of them had even been born in the thirties.

                            As for the Roman empire, it continued for a few centuries more in the West and for even longer in the East.
                            "It ain't necessarily so
                            The things that you're liable
                            To read in the Bible
                            It ain't necessarily so
                            ."

                            Sportin' Life
                            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                              But the gospels are not anti-Semitic, they have Jewish roots, and mostly Jewish authors, as Paul was also himself a Jew. "The Jews" here and in John in particular is a short-hand way of referring to the leaders of the Jewish nation, and their followers.

                              Blessings,
                              Lee
                              I was not referring to the gospels but the four canonical gospel passion narratives which are decidedly anti-Judaic/Semitic. All four have the Jews plotting Jesus' downfall, the wording surrounding the execution is circumlocutory suggesting the Jews played some part in that process. John's gospel even has the Jews carrying out the sentence. Then of course there is the "blood libel" of Matthew which was one of the main planks of later Christian anti-Semitism and was one of the texts used to justify the persecution of the Jewish people by Christianity and its adherents for upward of 1700 years.

                              As J.D. Crossan observed "the passion-resurrection stories [are] the matrix for Christian anti-Judaism and eventually for European anti-Semitism,” and that “without that Christian anti-Judaism, lethal and genocidal European anti-Semitism would have been either impossible or at least not widely successful".

                              Point of information, Paul never calls himself a "Jew".
                              "It ain't necessarily so
                              The things that you're liable
                              To read in the Bible
                              It ain't necessarily so
                              ."

                              Sportin' Life
                              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                                Point of information, Paul never calls himself a "Jew".
                                Meh.....

                                Scripture Verse: Philippians 3

                                4 though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law,[a] blameless.

                                © Copyright Original Source

                                Scripture Verse: Acts 22

                                “I am a Jew, born in Tarsus in Cilicia, but brought up in this city, educated at the feet of Gamaliel[a] according to the strict manner of the law of our fathers, being zealous for God as all of you are this day.

                                © Copyright Original Source

                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                                Comment

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