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The issue that led to the Right becoming Pro-Life

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    Interestingly, in her book Scarlet A: The Ethics, Law, & Politics of Ordinary Abortion, Katie Watson refers to the views of Katha Pollit as follows:

    “Katha Pollitt analyzes the biological argument from a practical angle. In Pro: Reclaiming Abortion Rights, she observes that about half of all fertilized eggs fail to implant and are washed out with menstrual flow. After implantation, 10–20% of known pregnancies end in miscarriages. So if fertilized eggs are morally equivalent to born people (either because of their DNA or because of their potentiality),why aren’t we devoting tremendous research dollars to stopping miscarriage? To Pollitt, the fact that those who say personhood begins at conception aren’t also upset about the natural, yet still epidemic, level of miscarriage suggests they are more intent on controlling women than rescuing zygotes, blastocysts and embryos. Conceptually, Pollitt sees DNA in this context as a secular synonym for the religious idea of ensoulment."
    Trying to argue for more funding for miscarriage is an interesting take on the biological arguments. There is a good amount of public funds dedicated to studying miscarriage. Really, ANY ailment can be said to not be "as important" because there isn't more funds assigned. I don't think it works very well. I also don't think it addresses the biological argument at all, but merely introduces a tu quoque fallacy.
    That's what
    - She

    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
    - Stephen R. Donaldson

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
      I think it would be more accurate to note that the severe and unremitting condemnation of abortion and infanticide, which was widely practised within contemporary Hellenistic society, was a visible mark of the writings of various ante and post Nicene ECFs and of course it was Judaic teachings for the respect towards all human life that influenced such views.
      Truth is truth, it doesn't matter who taught it prior to Christians. However there is no denying that abortion in the forms it took back were condemned.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
        I'm sorry... what?
        Many people who claim they are pro-life are really anti-abortion and confuse the two. Thus they have no problem claiming they are pro-life while being in favour of putting childring in cages, taking babies from thier mothers with no plan for reunification. They simple confuse the terms and think the life of the unborn is the only important life. They don't have a problem with the extreme number of human lives lost due to incompetent reactions to corona. They fail to see that there are lives to protect here as well.
        "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Charles View Post
          Many people who claim they are pro-life are really anti-abortion and confuse the two. Thus they have no problem claiming they are pro-life while being in favour of putting childring in cages, taking babies from thier mothers with no plan for reunification. They simple confuse the terms and think the life of the unborn is the only important life. They don't have a problem with the extreme number of human lives lost due to incompetent reactions to corona. They fail to see that there are lives to protect here as well.
          Some of the most vocal pro-lifers are also some of the most vocal people laying blame in one way or another on the black people killed that fostered our current set of protests, or intent on finding ways to justify force against peaceful protesters - e.g. Trumps church photo op, or the smearing of the character of the 75 year old put in the hospital and abandoned on the ground by the police.

          I think sometimes the difference is that often these issues are framed in terms of what is good and evil from a legislitic/literal perspective, rather than from a place of real compassion for all involved. Abortion is wrong, so we are against it. illegal immigration is wrong, so we are against it. And that kind of compassion-less legalism gives us inconsistent platforms, where one can stand in a picket line and cry out 'baby killer' to women entering an abortion clinic and believe one is standing up for the innocent unborn babies, yet support the heartless separation of little children from parents seeking a better life 'because they broke the law', without so much as a single thought to what those children are enduring, or what those parents must have been enduring to cause them to take the risk associated with illegal entry into the US in the first place.
          Last edited by oxmixmudd; 06-15-2020, 02:16 PM.
          My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

          If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

          This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Charles View Post
            Many people who claim they are pro-life are really anti-abortion and confuse the two. Thus they have no problem claiming they are pro-life while being in favour of putting childring in cages....
            Oh, here we go!!!!
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Charles View Post
              Many people who claim they are pro-life are really anti-abortion and confuse the two. Thus they have no problem claiming they are pro-life while being in favour of putting childring in cages, taking babies from thier mothers with no plan for reunification.
              I don't think anyone "has no problem" with it. It is an unfortunate side effect of breaking immigration laws. Just like no one "has no problem" breaking up a family when one of the parents goes to jail. It's sad that it came to that in the first place.

              They simple confuse the terms and think the life of the unborn is the only important life.
              Again, no one thinks that.

              They don't have a problem with the extreme number of human lives lost due to incompetent reactions to corona.
              We've been through this before, Charles. No one wanted people to die. Everyone did their best to politicize it. And we are not even at 10% of the forecasted deaths.

              They fail to see that there are lives to protect here as well.
              No they don't. They just see a different way to try to deal with situations than you did. Doesn't mean they value lives any less.
              That's what
              - She

              Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
              - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

              I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
              - Stephen R. Donaldson

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                Some of the most vocal pro-lifers are also some of the most vocal people laying blame in one way or another on the black people killed that fostered our current set of protests, or intent on finding ways to justify force against peaceful protesters - e.g. Trumps church photo op, or the smearing of the character of the 75 year old put in the hospital and abandoned on the ground by the police.

                I think sometimes the difference is that often these issues are framed in terms of what is good and evil from a legislitic/literal perspective, rather than from a place of real compassion for all involved. Abortion is wrong, so we are against it. illegal immigration is wrong, so we are against it. And that kind of compassion-less legalism gives us inconsistent platforms, where one can stand in a picket line and cry out 'baby killer' to women entering an abortion clinic and believe one is standing up for the innocent unborn babies, yet support the heartless separation of little children from parents seeking a better life 'because they broke the law', without so much as a single thought to what those children are enduring, or what those parents must have been enduring to cause them to take the risk associated with illegal entry into the US in the first place.
                That is very well put. The perspective of those who identify as pro-life is often very, very limited and lacks compassion. Of course there is a strategy in it as well and it is a useful tool to identify one self as pro-life thus questioning those who are seemingly not according to the narrow definition. However, I am afraid they do more harm than good even when it comes to the anti abortion position. I am anti abortion and I often have to go through the trouble of explaining I do not share the limited perspective and disregard for humans and human life often promoted by those who like to identify as pro-life but actually are not really.
                "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                  Interestingly, in her book Scarlet A: The Ethics, Law, & Politics of Ordinary Abortion, Katie Watson refers to the views of Katha Pollit as follows:

                  “Katha Pollitt analyzes the biological argument from a practical angle. In Pro: Reclaiming Abortion Rights, she observes that about half of all fertilized eggs fail to implant and are washed out with menstrual flow. After implantation, 10–20% of known pregnancies end in miscarriages. So if fertilized eggs are morally equivalent to born people (either because of their DNA or because of their potentiality),why aren’t we devoting tremendous research dollars to stopping miscarriage? To Pollitt, the fact that those who say personhood begins at conception aren’t also upset about the natural, yet still epidemic, level of miscarriage suggests they are more intent on controlling women than rescuing zygotes, blastocysts and embryos. Conceptually, Pollitt sees DNA in this context as a secular synonym for the religious idea of ensoulment."
                  That is very thought provoking and a challenging and interesting perspective. Thanks a lot for sharing. I'd be very interrsted in hearing further arguments both for and against it.
                  "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Charles View Post
                    Many people who claim they are pro-life are really anti-abortion and confuse the two. Thus they have no problem claiming they are pro-life while being in favour of putting childring in cages, taking babies from thier mothers with no plan for reunification. They simple confuse the terms and think the life of the unborn is the only important life. They don't have a problem with the extreme number of human lives lost due to incompetent reactions to corona. They fail to see that there are lives to protect here as well.
                    Of course it was the pro-choice godling of the left, the Obamessiah, who put "childring in cages" and it was the pro-life bad orange man who took them out.

                    And of course it was hypocritical twits such as yourself who didn't give a rat's bottom about "childring in cages" all the time the Obamessiah kept them in there and then all of a sudden got (self-)righteously indignant about it the moment the Obamessiah finally left office.


                    Fail better.

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      Of course it was the pro-choice godling of the left, the Obamessiah, who put "childring in cages" and it was the pro-life bad orange man who took them out.

                      And of course it was hypocritical twits such as yourself who didn't give a rat's bottom about "childring in cages" all the time the Obamessiah kept them in there and then all of a sudden got (self-)righteously indignant about it the moment the Obamessiah finally left office.


                      Fail better.
                      That was quite many false claims about me and my person in a very short post. And lots of loaded language too. I think I have made my position clear:
                      http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post749762
                      "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Charles View Post
                        That was quite many false claims about me and my person in a very short post. And lots of loaded language too. I think I have made my position clear:
                        http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post749762
                        Really? You're really going to post the stuff you did in this thread and then complain about someone using "loaded language"? Your self-awareness is about as low as Everest is high.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                          Really? You're really going to post the stuff you did in this thread and then complain about someone using "loaded language"? Your self-awareness is about as low as Everest is high.
                          You are of course free to adress anything you disagree with and give me reason to think otherwise. Anyone can do what Rogue did and make up false claims about everyone. And you are not really adressing anything I said but only concerned with my person. Anything of substance you want to say about actual points made?
                          "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Charles View Post
                            You are of course free to adress anything you disagree with and give me reason to think otherwise. Anyone can do what Rogue did and make up false claims about everyone. And you are not really adressing anything I said but only concerned with my person. Anything of substance you want to say about actual points made?
                            That you are a first class hypocrite is not only true it is undeniably so and beyond debate.

                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Charles View Post
                              You are of course free to adress anything you disagree with and give me reason to think otherwise. Anyone can do what Rogue did and make up false claims about everyone. And you are not really adressing anything I said but only concerned with my person. Anything of substance you want to say about actual points made?
                              You've made no "actual" points what so ever in this thread, the only thing you've done is cast aspersions on people in the pro-life camp.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                As for the history of the movement it isn't something I've ever engaged much in, and as I don't know much about it I can't argue for or against the OP. I do however hold quite firmly that life has infinite dignity, and abortion is murder.

                                Comment

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