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Thread: The issue that led to the Right becoming Pro-Life

  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    No one is denying that an embryo or foetus is an organism with the potential to become a human being. The matter is whether the mother wants to carry that pregnancy to term. If she does not she has the right to terminate it via a medically safe and legal abortion or by an abortifacient.
    And if a woman doesn't want to care for her 3 month old, should she have the right to "terminate it via a medically safe" method?

    We are never going agree on this issue so we may as well stop here.
    As long as you continue to spew illogical arguments that end up killing unique members of our species who have done nothing wrong except exist, I will continue to expose them.

    You consider abortion to be wrong because it destroys a potential human being.
    False. I consider it wrong because it destroys a human being. Not a potential one. An actual one.

    I consider that a woman has absolute control over determining her own fertility and what happens to her body.
    Again, what part of YOUR body gets removed in an abortion?

    I might ask if you have ever seen a botched illegal abortion?
    No. Nor does that matter. I've never seen someone overdose on heroine either. Both are avoidable by better choices.

    Oh look an ad hominem.
    Saying a book is biased isn't an ad hominem

    Really?
    Really.

    What do you suppose happens to children whose mothers die in childbirth? What do you suppose the role of a “wet nurse” was in previous centuries?
    Not relevant to my question. If a single mother living alone places her baby in a corner for 45 days and never tells anyone about it, what will happen to it? Can an infant survive on its own?

    Your observation that my remark was an ad hominem was incorrect. My comment was a supposition. However, you have demonstrated your own weakness when it comes to making unwarranted personal remarks.
    Riiiight… Again, if it walks like a duck...

    The phrase was not coined by the Nazis.
    https://www.thoughtco.com/nazis-and-women-1221068

    Godwin's Law.

    There was no ”church” prior to the fourth century.
    Perhaps you missed the entire New Testament's description of the church?

    There were physical buildings and religious communities but there was no overarching “Church” as in an organised authority.
    False. The Church at Jerusalem was the authority until Peter moved to Rome.

    That was merely Irenaeus expressing his views towards various other Christians, including the Gnostics, with whose theology he did not agree. He was a bishop but the title carried no authority outside his own community at that period. The term episkipos from which it derives simply meant an overseer. Irenaeas had no authority over Christians across the empire. No one did.
    This is complete and utter ignorance. The Bishops were appointed by the Apostles and their students. They were the authorities of their region, reporting to the Bishop of Rome.

    Pope Clement I
    “Through countryside and city [the apostles] preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier. . . . Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry” (Letter to the Corinthians 42:4–5, 44:1–3 [A.D. 80]).

    Purely in order to inform you on the issues surrounding a homoousion deity.
    I'm not talking about the Trinity. I'm talking about the anti-abortion stance.

    Briggmann writes in reference to Irenaeus' comments in Prf 10 [Proof of the Apostolic Reading]

    The ascription of equal divinity to the Three prevents a subordinationist reading, insofar as subordinationism refers to gradations of divinity in the Godhead. Yet, the ascription of equal divinity does not at this time in Christian history rule out a hierarchical understanding of the Trinitarian relations by which second-century theologians often differentiated the Three.” [See Briggman, Anthony, Irenaeus Of Lyons and the Theology of the Holy Spirit pp. 201-203].

    In other words the views held by Irenaeus’ with regard to a Trinity were most likely far removed from the homoousion concept that would be presented well over one hundred years later at Nicaea in 325 CE.

    You also need to remember that even after the death of Constantine and despite the decision taken at Nicaea, the issue of the relationship between the Son and the Father remained unresolved. In 341 CE, Eusebius of Nicomedia, a supporter of Arian, presided over the Dedication Council at Antioch, oversaw Athanasius and his fellow like-minded bishops being deposed, and ensured the ascendancy of official Arianism in the East for the next thirty years.

    By the last quarter of the fourth century the situation had become completely farcical with imperial Christianity effectively split and the two Augusti supporting different beliefs. Valentinian II [reigned in the West from 375 until 392 CE] was a Homoean and Theodosius I [reigned from 379 until 392 CE as Augustus of the East] and as sole emperor until 395 CE was a supporter of the Nicene Creed.

    Your “orthodoxy” could only be enforced by Imperial edict with the threat of severe punishment [including death] for those who dissented. And that is what happened in 381 CE.

    That is why all those Gnostic texts were hidden at Nag Hammadi. From 381 they were deemed heretical.

    I find that so many Christians simply fail to understand the development of their religion over its first three hundred years or so.
    Again, this has nothing to do with the anti-abortion stance of the early Church.

    You seem [if I understand that comment correctly] to be suggesting that lay Christians were at odds with their various pastors, priests, and vicars on this issue. On what evidence?
    The anti-abortion stance of the early Fathers was the orthodox position. That some who called themselves Christians were disagreeing is immaterial. The leadership set doctrine.

    I must admit your earnest desire to stress your credentials does rather put me in mind of Gertrude’s line in Hamlet, you “protest too much, methinks”.
    Ask yourself why you quote the books you have cited. Are you stressing their credentials?


    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals --- Manya the Holy Szin --- The Quintara Marathon ---

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  2. Amen Cow Poke, Terraceth amen'd this post.
  3. #202
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    [QUOTE=Hypatia_Alexandria;750891]
    The old chestnut. If you had to choose and could only choose one which would you save in a fire? A container holding 10 fertilised embryos or a day old baby?
    What if that day old baby is Adolph Hitler?


    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals --- Manya the Holy Szin --- The Quintara Marathon ---

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common --- Stephen R. Donaldson ---

  4. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    I would argue on the one hand, leaving the issue of whether it is a human person or not aside, that the reason is because it's the womans body, so regardless of whose DNA it is, it is up to her if she wants to house a fetus within it.
    SO, again, if the woman is single, lives on the side of a mountain with her 3 month old, should she be allowed to put the baby out in the cold to die if she no longer wants to house it within her house?


    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals --- Manya the Holy Szin --- The Quintara Marathon ---

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common --- Stephen R. Donaldson ---

  5. #204
    tWebber Hypatia_Alexandria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    That's a location. Being inside a garage doesn't make you part of the garage.
    You will be telling me next that "You don’t plow under the corn because the seed was planted with a neighbor’s shovel."

    Or that the pregnant woman is merely a convenient growing medium for a completely independent embryo.
    "Fables should be taught as fables, myths as myths, and miracles as poetic fantasies."

  6. #205
    tWebber Hypatia_Alexandria's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Bill the Cat;750916]
    Quote Originally Posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

    What if that day old baby is Adolph Hitler?
    Why? What had the day old Adolph Hitler done?
    "Fables should be taught as fables, myths as myths, and miracles as poetic fantasies."

  7. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

    Why? What had the day old Adolph Hitler done?
    Ok, if you were in a burning room with your mother and 15 terminal cancer patients and could only save one or the other, which would you save?


    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals --- Manya the Holy Szin --- The Quintara Marathon ---

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common --- Stephen R. Donaldson ---

  8. #207
    tWebber Hypatia_Alexandria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    Ok, if you were in a burning room with your mother and 15 terminal cancer patients and could only save one or the other, which would you save?
    Ah standard deflection tactics.
    "Fables should be taught as fables, myths as myths, and miracles as poetic fantasies."

  9. #208
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    Ok, if you were in a burning room with your mother and 15 terminal cancer patients and could only save one or the other, which would you save?
    B! I choose B!!!!
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

  10. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    Ah standard deflection tactics.
    Nope. Just countering to show the absurdity of that canard. Valuing 2 choices at different gradients in no way means the lesser valued item is in and of itself worthless. Now answer if you can. Your mom or the cancer patients...

  11. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    Nope. Just countering to show the absurdity of that canard. Valuing 2 choices at different gradients in no way means the lesser valued item is in and of itself worthless. Now answer if you can. Your mom or the cancer patients...
    Did they make you play "life boat" in High School? The "situational ethics" game?
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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