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Originally posted by MaxVel View PostTearing down statues strikes me as one of the dumbest and more dangerous things to do. They are part of the history of a country, and should be preserved as such. Far better to get a plaque added that explains the historical background, so everyone can see and know where we have come from.
The statue of some earlier person, of dubious character or actions, can be used to explain and educate how things used to be, and why we are not like that now. When the statue is gone, the memory and truth of that past will fade, too. I quite expect dumb Americans to be denying that there ever was any slavery in America at all, 20 years from now. Like some Holocaust deniers - 'Where's the physical evidence? Where are the camps?'. People are going to claim that stories about Jefferson (or whoever) owning slaves are just bunkum, made up to try and justify special treatment for blacks.
You would think that the atheists and 'science' people here, of everyone, would be most vocal in insisting that actual physical evidence be preserved. But no...
If a statue is offensive, get over it. Many things are offensive to many people. That's life. Use that offense to educate and explain to people what the problem is.
And when you say "The statue of some earlier person, of dubious character or actions, can be used to explain and educate how things used to be, and why we are not like that now."... I have to wonder, have you ever actually experienced in your life, ever, a statue being genuinely used for education in any such way? Because I haven't. I did 23 years of formal education and there was not a single statue involved in any of it, not once. I can't point to a single time in my life when I ever saw or heard someone actually be genuinely interested in a statue of a person what it represented. When I toured the Vatican there were a thousand statues, but not a one of them was interesting or memorable.
Since you don't seem to have any plausible arguments, it tends to come across as if the underlying cause of the outrage is a love of what these statues stand for (slavery, white supremacy, KKK, confederacy etc), and what you're actually opposed to is the idea of not celebrating those concepts."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostI see very very little difference between the political positions 'anarchist' and 'libertarian'. You seem to be friends with plenty of self-styled libertarians on this board. Yet you want me to denounce the anarchists? What do you see as being the difference?
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Originally posted by Ronson View PostThere is plenty of difference between an anarchist and a libertarian."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostPerhaps you could explain what you see to be the differences, rather than merely claiming that differences exist? A new thread might be appropriate if you would like to start one.
Anarchists don't want any government.
Simple.
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Originally posted by Leonhard View PostActually some of those statues are propaganda pieces, put up during the Jim Crow laws. I wouldn't call them part of the history of your country, at least in any sense that goes back any farther than the thirties.
We can discuss the act of violence and whether it is wise in and of itself, but to call it an attack on history (at least in general) is a bit much.
Well, I argue that the fact that some of them were put up as propaganda pieces is itself part of America's history that should be understood and remembered.
And I think it's an attack on history because I doubt most of those actually defacing or tearing down statues aren't doing so with an understanding of the history behind them, and because it's the sole way to promote a better understanding of the past, so we can live in a better present. This fever has spread to other places outside America, sadly.
It's about as reasoned and well thought out as tearing down Kareem Abdul-Jabaar's statue outside the Staples Centre in LA because 'he worked as an assassin-for-hire - see Bruce Lee's 'documentary' Game of Death'
Most historical figures are more complex and ambiguous than we'd like to think, and represent both good and bad to some degree or other....>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostWhat an absurd post. As a scientist, I don't need statues as evidence for anything. Perhaps they would be of use to some archaeologist in 3000 years, but they're just as likely to find a building fragment useful. I see absolutely no problem with people getting rid of any statues that annoy them.
And when you say "The statue of some earlier person, of dubious character or actions, can be used to explain and educate how things used to be, and why we are not like that now."... I have to wonder, have you ever actually experienced in your life, ever, a statue being genuinely used for education in any such way? Because I haven't. I did 23 years of formal education and there was not a single statue involved in any of it, not once.
Originally posted by StarlightI can't point to a single time in my life when I ever saw or heard someone actually be genuinely interested in a statue of a person what it represented. When I toured the Vatican there were a thousand statues, but not a one of them was interesting or memorable.
Actually, your reaction says more about your profound lack of intellectual curiousity and shallowness. It's just embarrassing.
Originally posted by StarlightSince you don't seem to have any plausible arguments, it tends to come across as if the underlying cause of the outrage is a love of what these statues stand for (slavery, white supremacy, KKK, confederacy etc), and what you're actually opposed to is the idea of not celebrating those concepts.
What a loon you are. As usual you resort to the lowest of character attacks and attempts at smears. You're a disgrace to your profession and your country....>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...
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Originally posted by MaxVel View PostWhat a loon you are. As usual you resort to the lowest of character attacks and attempts at smears. You're a disgrace to your profession and your country.
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostAn understanding of the current US right-wing pathology, its causes and its symptoms, from interacting with those who have it.
Do you have any particularly good specific recommendations? Or is this a "I'm sure they could find somewhere better on google" throwaway line? I would be quite interested in following a high quality modern philosophy discussion forum/list.
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Originally posted by MaxVel View PostWell, I argue that the fact that some of them were put up as propaganda pieces is itself part of America's history that should be understood and remembered.
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Originally posted by Zara View PostWow, the MO of your president. A disgrace to the office and your country - from a global perspective, mind - rather than your narrow minded bubble of closet retards....>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...
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Originally posted by Leonhard View PostIf a survey was done in that area about those statues, and a simple majority of the people asked could ballpark when the statues were made and the history behind them being made, then I'd agree with you. If that isn't the case then I don't think many of those statues actually teach history, as much as they teach the distorted version of history the makers of them wanted to teach....>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...
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Originally posted by MaxVel View PostMy point is that - if they remain - they can teach history.
If they are torn down by a mob acting in a 'righteous rage' then they can't.
I think anyone who wants to defend these statues would do well to memorize certain portions of the commencement speech of Julian Carr, who the Daughters of the Confederacy had invited to speak on the dedication of Silent Sam. The decades after the war he talked about, and what was done to "save" the South involved a lot of killing of black people.
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Originally posted by MaxVel View PostMy point is that - if they remain - they can teach history. If they are torn down by a mob acting in a 'righteous rage' then they can't. And IMHO it's better that they remain, in most cases, with additions of explanations where appropriate. Because I think it's unhealthy and dangerous for a society to try and 'delete' the past, rather than being honest about it, and dealing with the wrongs that were done.Last edited by Zara; 06-23-2020, 11:55 PM.
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Originally posted by Ronson View PostIt's not necessary. Libertarians believe in small government - as little as possible that can get the job done.
Anarchists don't want any government.
Simple."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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