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  • #46

    Originally posted by Starlight View Post
    An understanding of the current US right-wing pathology...


    You are SUCH a joy!
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
      Tearing down statues strikes me as one of the dumbest and more dangerous things to do. They are part of the history of a country, and should be preserved as such. Far better to get a plaque added that explains the historical background, so everyone can see and know where we have come from.

      The statue of some earlier person, of dubious character or actions, can be used to explain and educate how things used to be, and why we are not like that now. When the statue is gone, the memory and truth of that past will fade, too. I quite expect dumb Americans to be denying that there ever was any slavery in America at all, 20 years from now. Like some Holocaust deniers - 'Where's the physical evidence? Where are the camps?'. People are going to claim that stories about Jefferson (or whoever) owning slaves are just bunkum, made up to try and justify special treatment for blacks.

      You would think that the atheists and 'science' people here, of everyone, would be most vocal in insisting that actual physical evidence be preserved. But no...


      If a statue is offensive, get over it. Many things are offensive to many people. That's life. Use that offense to educate and explain to people what the problem is.
      What an absurd post. As a scientist, I don't need statues as evidence for anything. Perhaps they would be of use to some archaeologist in 3000 years, but they're just as likely to find a building fragment useful. I see absolutely no problem with people getting rid of any statues that annoy them.

      And when you say "The statue of some earlier person, of dubious character or actions, can be used to explain and educate how things used to be, and why we are not like that now."... I have to wonder, have you ever actually experienced in your life, ever, a statue being genuinely used for education in any such way? Because I haven't. I did 23 years of formal education and there was not a single statue involved in any of it, not once. I can't point to a single time in my life when I ever saw or heard someone actually be genuinely interested in a statue of a person what it represented. When I toured the Vatican there were a thousand statues, but not a one of them was interesting or memorable.

      Since you don't seem to have any plausible arguments, it tends to come across as if the underlying cause of the outrage is a love of what these statues stand for (slavery, white supremacy, KKK, confederacy etc), and what you're actually opposed to is the idea of not celebrating those concepts.
      "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
      "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
      "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Starlight View Post
        I see very very little difference between the political positions 'anarchist' and 'libertarian'. You seem to be friends with plenty of self-styled libertarians on this board. Yet you want me to denounce the anarchists? What do you see as being the difference?
        False premise. There is plenty of difference between an anarchist and a libertarian. About as much as there is between liberals and communists.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Ronson View Post
          There is plenty of difference between an anarchist and a libertarian.
          Perhaps you could explain what you see to be the differences, rather than merely claiming that differences exist? A new thread might be appropriate if you would like to start one.
          "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
          "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
          "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Starlight View Post
            Perhaps you could explain what you see to be the differences, rather than merely claiming that differences exist? A new thread might be appropriate if you would like to start one.
            It's not necessary. Libertarians believe in small government - as little as possible that can get the job done.
            Anarchists don't want any government.
            Simple.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
              Actually some of those statues are propaganda pieces, put up during the Jim Crow laws. I wouldn't call them part of the history of your country, at least in any sense that goes back any farther than the thirties.

              We can discuss the act of violence and whether it is wise in and of itself, but to call it an attack on history (at least in general) is a bit much.

              Well, I argue that the fact that some of them were put up as propaganda pieces is itself part of America's history that should be understood and remembered.

              And I think it's an attack on history because I doubt most of those actually defacing or tearing down statues aren't doing so with an understanding of the history behind them, and because it's the sole way to promote a better understanding of the past, so we can live in a better present. This fever has spread to other places outside America, sadly.

              It's about as reasoned and well thought out as tearing down Kareem Abdul-Jabaar's statue outside the Staples Centre in LA because 'he worked as an assassin-for-hire - see Bruce Lee's 'documentary' Game of Death'


              Most historical figures are more complex and ambiguous than we'd like to think, and represent both good and bad to some degree or other.
              ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                What an absurd post. As a scientist, I don't need statues as evidence for anything. Perhaps they would be of use to some archaeologist in 3000 years, but they're just as likely to find a building fragment useful. I see absolutely no problem with people getting rid of any statues that annoy them.

                And when you say "The statue of some earlier person, of dubious character or actions, can be used to explain and educate how things used to be, and why we are not like that now."... I have to wonder, have you ever actually experienced in your life, ever, a statue being genuinely used for education in any such way? Because I haven't. I did 23 years of formal education and there was not a single statue involved in any of it, not once.
                Obviously you wasted 23 years of your life, then, since you've emerged as a narrow-minded 'specialist', who has no use for anything that doesn't fit your personal worldview tastes.


                Originally posted by Starlight
                I can't point to a single time in my life when I ever saw or heard someone actually be genuinely interested in a statue of a person what it represented. When I toured the Vatican there were a thousand statues, but not a one of them was interesting or memorable.
                Yeah, that proves it. Statues are insignificant, boring and uninteresting.

                Actually, your reaction says more about your profound lack of intellectual curiousity and shallowness. It's just embarrassing.



                Originally posted by Starlight
                Since you don't seem to have any plausible arguments, it tends to come across as if the underlying cause of the outrage is a love of what these statues stand for (slavery, white supremacy, KKK, confederacy etc), and what you're actually opposed to is the idea of not celebrating those concepts.

                What a loon you are. As usual you resort to the lowest of character attacks and attempts at smears. You're a disgrace to your profession and your country.
                ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
                  What a loon you are. As usual you resort to the lowest of character attacks and attempts at smears. You're a disgrace to your profession and your country.
                  Wow, the MO of your president. A disgrace to the office and your country - from a global perspective, mind - rather than your narrow minded bubble of closet retards.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                    An understanding of the current US right-wing pathology, its causes and its symptoms, from interacting with those who have it.
                    A rather negative way to state it. One of my liberal friends in the US visits this forum now and then because I've talked about it. He uses it as a barometer on what conservatives are thinking about.

                    Do you have any particularly good specific recommendations? Or is this a "I'm sure they could find somewhere better on google" throwaway line? I would be quite interested in following a high quality modern philosophy discussion forum/list.
                    Eh, just go to Reddit, even small subreddits there have both more traffic and more people engaging in it. I'd suggest r/askphilosophy for a start.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
                      Well, I argue that the fact that some of them were put up as propaganda pieces is itself part of America's history that should be understood and remembered.
                      If a survey was done in that area about those statues, and a simple majority of the people asked could ballpark when the statues were made and the history behind them being made, then I'd agree with you. If that isn't the case then I don't think many of those statues actually teach history, as much as they teach the distorted version of history the makers of them wanted to teach.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Zara View Post
                        Wow, the MO of your president. A disgrace to the office and your country - from a global perspective, mind - rather than your narrow minded bubble of closet retards.
                        Your post makes no sense to me. Are you saying that I am using the MO of my President, Trump?
                        ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                          If a survey was done in that area about those statues, and a simple majority of the people asked could ballpark when the statues were made and the history behind them being made, then I'd agree with you. If that isn't the case then I don't think many of those statues actually teach history, as much as they teach the distorted version of history the makers of them wanted to teach.
                          My point is that - if they remain - they can teach history. If they are torn down by a mob acting in a 'righteous rage' then they can't. And IMHO it's better that they remain, in most cases, with additions of explanations where appropriate. Because I think it's unhealthy and dangerous for a society to try and 'delete' the past, rather than being honest about it, and dealing with the wrongs that were done.
                          ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
                            My point is that - if they remain - they can teach history.
                            They can also teach history in a museum dedicated to the Jim Crow era, or to the Civil war, or to the history of a particular city. They don't have to be given a place of honor in order to teach history. That smacks me of a conservative attitude of "I know this is a mistake, but we shouldn't fix it. Things should remain as they are."

                            If they are torn down by a mob acting in a 'righteous rage' then they can't.
                            They aren't already if people think they're really old statues, or dedicated by the town, or anything other than a small group of people with money putting them up when segregation was introduced. I thought people were exagerating that for a while, until I read some of the commencement speeches for them.

                            I think anyone who wants to defend these statues would do well to memorize certain portions of the commencement speech of Julian Carr, who the Daughters of the Confederacy had invited to speak on the dedication of Silent Sam. The decades after the war he talked about, and what was done to "save" the South involved a lot of killing of black people.

                            Source: Carr's Speech

                            The present generation, I am persuaded, scarcely takes note of what the Confederate soldier meant to the welfare of the Anglo Saxon race during the four years immediately succeeding the war, when the facts are, that their courage and steadfastness saved the very life of the Anglo Saxon race in the South – When “the bottom rail was on top” all over the Southern states, and to-day, as a consequence the purest strain of the Anglo Saxon is to be found in the 13 Southern States – Praise God.
                            I trust I may be pardoned for one allusion, howbeit it is rather personal. One hundred yards from where we stand, less than ninety days perhaps after my return from Appomattox, I horse-whipped a negro wench until her skirts hung in shreds, because upon the streets of this quiet village she had publicly insulted and maligned a Southern lady, and then rushed for protection to these University buildings where was stationed a garrison of 100 Federal soldiers. I performed the pleasing duty in the immediate presence of the entire garrison, and for thirty nights afterwards slept with a double-barrel shot gun under my head.

                            © Copyright Original Source

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
                              My point is that - if they remain - they can teach history. If they are torn down by a mob acting in a 'righteous rage' then they can't. And IMHO it's better that they remain, in most cases, with additions of explanations where appropriate. Because I think it's unhealthy and dangerous for a society to try and 'delete' the past, rather than being honest about it, and dealing with the wrongs that were done.
                              Closet racists, may use them to legitimate their racism to their progeny. While they remain a symbol of hate to those that suffered under their reign. Not everyone ought to be remembered in the form of a statue. Maybe invest in a better education system that breaks the transmission of racism in the US - including within the police force. Its not that hard, unless you don't really want to change - which I suspect is the case for a large portion of the in the closet racists (it turns out that being a racist isn't something you tell others if you are).
                              Last edited by Zara; 06-23-2020, 11:55 PM.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Ronson View Post
                                It's not necessary. Libertarians believe in small government - as little as possible that can get the job done.
                                Anarchists don't want any government.
                                Simple.
                                I suspect a great deal of complexity lies in the "get the job done" part of that in terms of different people having different ideas as to what "the job" of government is...
                                "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                                "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                                "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                                Comment

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