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Thread: Supreme court strikes down Louisiana law restricting abortions.

  1. #41
    tWebber Darth Executor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonhard View Post
    And my point was that I'd be against illegal action taken against them, and cannot support it.
    I believe we already established your... inconsistency on the matter w regard to criminal action taken against Nazis a few months back, no need to rehash the subject.
    "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

    There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

  2. #42
    Technology Staff Leonhard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Executor View Post
    I believe we already established your... inconsistency on the matter w regard to criminal action taken against Nazis a few months back, no need to rehash the subject.
    Darth Ex, I do not support anti-abortion terrorism of any kind. There is also no parallel to freedom fighters.

    I don't get why you don't just say "Amen brother" and be on with it. There's no place in the Christian movement for those kinds of actions.

  3. #43
    tWebber Darth Executor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonhard View Post
    Darth Ex, I do not support anti-abortion terrorism of any kind. There is also no parallel to freedom fighters.
    Just because it's causing you cognitive dissonance doesn't mean there is no parallel. There is in fact a parallel, which is that both abortionists and Nazis were mass murderers, and if you think criminal action against one is justified then it logically follows that criminal action against the other is also justified.

    I don't get why you don't just say "Amen brother" and be on with it. There's no place in the Christian movement for those kinds of actions.
    Because the grossly inconsistent position you and others like you hold is doing damage to both Christianity and the pro life position. If you want to argue that anti-abortion terrorism is wrong then you should also argue anti-nazi terrorism is wrong. If you want to argue anti-nazi terrorism is right then you should admit there's nothing wrong with anti-abortion terrorism.
    "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

    There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

  4. #44
    Technology Staff Leonhard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Executor View Post
    Just because it's causing you cognitive dissonance doesn't mean there is no parallel.
    Please refrain from the ad hominem. I talk to you respectfully, and I would like you to treat me in kind.

    There is in fact a parallel, which is that both abortionists and Nazis were mass murderers, and if you think criminal action against one is justified then it logically follows that criminal action against the other is also justified.
    The parallel is very thin, I made some arguments a long time ago on it. I remember arguing that the Christian case for freedom fighters and rebellion is difficult. At any rate I see no similarity between a vigilante in the US making committing a counter productive murder, or some freedom fighters blowing up a train track to stop tanks from reaching the front.

    Because the grossly inconsistent position you and others like you hold is doing damage to both Christianity and the pro life position.
    There is no inconsistency. I believe in the dignity of life. That includes the life of the doctors and women involved in this. There is no state of war that anyone here are in, and the terrorists doing these actions are not soldiers of any flag, nor are they cooperating with any allies, seeking to aid that side in a war that would end in a few years.

    The terrorists who committed those acts of terrorism against these doctors did a lot of irreparable harm. It is because of useless vigilantism like that that we have huge zones around the abortion mills that we canít get close to. None of them have accomplished anything of significance.

    The freedom fighters at least managed to stop tanks and train supplies from going to the from assisting the allies.
    Last edited by Leonhard; 06-29-2020 at 05:03 PM.

  5. #45
    tWebber Darth Executor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonhard View Post
    Please refrain from the ad hominem. I talk to you respectfully, and I would like you to treat me in kind.
    What are you talking about? How is saying you have cognitive dissonance an ad hominem?


    The parallel is very thin, I made some arguments a long time ago on it. I remember arguing that the Christian case for freedom fighters and rebellion is difficult. At any rate I see no similarity between a vigilante in the US making committing a counter productive murder, or some freedom fighters blowing up a train track to stop tanks from reaching the front.
    Do you have any evidence that murdering an abortionist is counter-productive? I've observed the opposite, that people who are otherwise not hostile to Christians or pro-lifers think we don't really care about unborn children because we won't use violence to protect them.

    It's the hardcore abortion lovers that use the (extremely rare) violence against abortion providers as a bludgeon to guilt trip people like you into acting like you don't really care.


    There is no inconsistency. I believe in the dignity of life. That includes the life of the doctors and women involved in this.
    What about the dignity of the life of the Nazis?

    There is no state of war that anyone here are in, and the terrorists doing these actions are not soldiers of any flag, nor are they cooperating with any allies, seeking to aid that side in a war that would end in a few years.
    So what? This is an arbitrary distinction with no merit. A crime doesn't stop being a crime just because it might be excused by the law later. By this logic we could also claim that in the future Christians will overthrow the liberal baby killers and retroactively immunize abortion killers from their crimes.

    I have not neither in this discussion or in the last one we had about it said anything like that. Last time I tried to reason with you, considering your points in turn as well.

    The terrorists who committed those acts of terrorism against these doctors did a lot of irreparable harm. It is because of useless vigilantism like that that we have huge zones around the abortion mills that we canít get close to. None of them have accomplished anything of significance.
    This is silly and wrong. George Tiller for example was one of only 3 partial birth abortionists in the country. Killing him certainly reduced their number for a while. Training a doctor (even a fake one) takes a lot of time and resources.

    Anyway, if you could be convinced that anti-abortion violence was effective and there was a Christian army who would liberate the world from liberal progressive hegemony in a few years would you support violence against them?
    "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

    There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

  6. #46
    Technology Staff Leonhard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Executor View Post
    What are you talking about? How is saying you have cognitive dissonance an ad hominem?
    Darth Ex you are intelligent enough that you can understand a request about being treated with respect. I ask you to meet it and I find no reason why youíd hesitate if I treat you well.

    Do you have any evidence that murdering an abortionist is counter-productive? I've observed the opposite, that people who are otherwise not hostile to Christians or pro-lifers think we don't really care about unborn children because we won't use violence to protect them.
    Yes, it can be seen both in terms of public support, as well as the political down fall from every case of these. I have not met a single person in my life with a positive reaction towards pro life act of terrorism. On the contrary, since it violates dignity of life it seems entirely inconsistent.

    It's the hardcore abortion lovers that use the (extremely rare) violence against abortion providers as a bludgeon to guilt trip people like you into acting like you don't really care.
    Again, stop making this personal. I have always stated my support of the dignity of life, both here and amongst friends when the opportunity was right.

    What about the dignity of the life of the Nazis
    At best this line of argument would commit me to being against freedom fighters. I stated as much to you in our last discussion.

    So what? This is an arbitrary distinction with no merit.
    I outlined several distinctions. There is hardly anymore of a comparison between the two than between BLM protestors and the Boston Tea Party.

    George Tiller for example was one of only 3 partial birth abortionists in the country. Killing him certainly reduced their number for a while.
    The majority of the change has been due to other factors. The fraction of late term abortions is unchanged.

    Anyway, if you could be convinced that anti-abortion violence was effective and there was a Christian army who would liberate the world from liberal progressive hegemony in a few years would you support violence against them?
    Probably not, but then the argument would at least have enough of a standing to be deserved a hearing. Right now I donít think it passes the smell test.

  7. #47
    tWebber Darth Executor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonhard View Post
    Darth Ex you are intelligent enough that you can understand a request about being treated with respect. I ask you to meet it and I find no reason why youíd hesitate if I treat you well.
    Telling someone they are wrong is not disrespect.

    Yes, it can be seen both in terms of public support, as well as the political down fall from every case of these.
    You mean like the political "downfall" of Muslims, who became protected classes despite countless acts of terrorism?

    At best this line of argument would commit me to being against freedom fighters. I stated as much to you in our last discussion.
    That's fine. I have no hard opinion on which stance is correct. I just don't think cherrypicking which vigilante you support is a consistent position, unlike the two positions I outlined.

    I outlined several distinctions. There is hardly anymore of a comparison between the two than between BLM protestors and the Boston Tea Party.
    You outlined several distinctions of questionable relevance. What you claim to be a consistent stand for the dignity of all life falls to the wayside when it comes to killing Nazis.

    I could explain why you have a visceral reaction to one but not the other but you'd probably accuse me of disrespecting you again.

    Probably not
    Well then even you recognize that you are only finding distinctions between the two because you only want to support one act of vigilantism and the rationalizations come after.
    "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

    There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

  8. #48
    Technology Staff Leonhard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Executor View Post
    Telling someone they are wrong is not disrespect.
    That is not merely what you are doing.

    I have no hard opinion on which stance is correct.
    You stated that Christians are doing harm to Christianity arguing that pro-life terrorism is bad.

    You outlined several distinctions of questionable relevance. What you claim to be a consistent stand for the dignity of all life falls to the wayside when it comes to killing Nazis.
    I disagree, the two situations are quite different. I believe what freedom fighters did is defensible in principle, under those circumstances. What pro-life terrorists do does not accomplish any goal except to satisfy an urge of violence. It can demonstrated that they had zero lasting impact, and can be argued quite well that they have done harm to pro-life movement.

    I could explain why you have a visceral reaction to one but not the other but you'd probably accuse me of disrespecting you again.
    Again Darth Ex, Iíd prefer for you just to make the case you want to advance and we can discuss that. I have been psycho-analyzing you, so please stop that.
    Last edited by Leonhard; 06-29-2020 at 11:35 PM.

  9. #49
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    Justice Roberts casts deciding vote in overturning Louisiana abortion restrictions law in win for Pro-choice advocates.
    Yes, because it is always a "win" when liberals get to kill more babies.

  10. #50
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    Yes, because it is always a "win" when liberals get to kill more babies.
    It's a win for a womens right to choose to do with their own bodies and lives what they will rather than having men lord it over them. Abortion is legal and state laws such as Louisiana's are simply attempts to make what is legal nearly immpossible to achieve. Abortion is either legal or it is not, at the moment it is legal, so making it as difficult as possible to achieve is just a way of states trying to circumvent the law.

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