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Thread: Free will?

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    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Free will?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    The Law itself assumes people have the ability to disobey it. If you have no free will then any disobedience would just be God willing you to disobey.
    Notice that "The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase." (Rom 5:20), and "God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." (Rom. 11:32). Yes, God wills people to disobey sometimes.

    We would be merely puppets and salvation a play. It wouldn't mean anything.
    Salvation is ultimately by God's decision, we may note that the analogies of salvation (new birth, new creation, etc.) are all passive on our part.

    To me, that would make God evil.
    God uses secondary causes to bring about sin, though:

    "Again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, 'Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.' " (2 Sam. 24:1)

    "Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel." (1 Ch 21:1)

    So God is not the author of sin, but sin is indeed in God's plan, as in the cross.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Notice that "The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase." (Rom 5:20), and "God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." (Rom. 11:32). Yes, God wills people to disobey sometimes.


    Salvation is ultimately by God's decision, we may note that the analogies of salvation (new birth, new creation, etc.) are all passive on our part.


    God uses secondary causes to bring about sin, though:

    "Again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, 'Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.' " (2 Sam. 24:1)

    "Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel." (1 Ch 21:1)

    So God is not the author of sin, but sin is indeed in God's plan, as in the cross.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    But if there is no free will, then God made Satan do it too. God is just a great big puppetmaster putting on a play for his own amusement and we are all just puppets.

    The bible talks about "choosing" a lot. Yet without free will, we can't choose.

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    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    But if there is no free will, then God made Satan do it too. God is just a great big puppetmaster putting on a play for his own amusement and we are all just puppets.
    I believe we will eventually have free will, within the will of God.

    The bible talks about "choosing" a lot. Yet without free will, we can't choose.
    Right, we can't choose, without God:

    "Jesus replied, 'Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.' " (Jn 8:34)

    "We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do." (Ro 7:1415)

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    I believe we will eventually have free will, within the will of God.


    Right, we can't choose, without God:

    "Jesus replied, 'Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.' " (Jn 8:34)

    "We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do." (Ro 7:1415)

    Blessings,
    Lee
    You are not making sense. If we have no free will then we can't choose anything. We are just puppets. Robots. Any sin we commit is God's doing through us. So he makes us sin, then punishes us for it. That is evil.

  5. Amen alaskazimm amen'd this post.
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    tWebber alaskazimm's Avatar
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    Even a slave can choose to be set free if the choice is given. They may not choose freedom and would rather stay with their master, but the choice is theirs none the less.

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    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    You are not making sense. If we have no free will then we can't choose anything. We are just puppets. Robots.
    Are you saying the one who sins is not a slave to sin? And that believers are not slaves to God?

    Any sin we commit is God's doing through us.
    No, God uses secondary causes, but sin is indeed in his plan, as in the cross.

    So he makes us sin, then punishes us for it. That is evil.
    Source: leenotes

    RO 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"

    First we should notice what Paul doesn't say, he doesn't say that men freely choose to sin, and thus God is just in condemning them. This is a perfect opportunity to give this reply, and solve the knot. Instead, Paul says "God has a right to do what he wants with us":

    RO 9:21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

    Now is God wrong to do this? The motive is what we look at, to determine guilt or innocence. And if God's motive is always good, then he is not guilty in carrying out his plans for a good purpose, and a good result.

    Source

    © Copyright Original Source



    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alaskazimm View Post
    Even a slave can choose to be set free if the choice is given. They may not choose freedom and would rather stay with their master, but the choice is theirs none the less.
    "Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?" (Rom. 7:24)

    Not "I will!", but rather...

    "Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!" (Rom. 7:25)

    "My eyes are continually toward the LORD,
    For He will pluck my feet out of the net." (Ps 25:15)

    If we could deliver ourselves from sin, from slavery to sin, then Christ died needlessly (Gal. 2:21).

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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    tWebber alaskazimm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    "Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?" (Rom. 7:24)

    Not "I will!", but rather...

    "Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!" (Rom. 7:25)

    "My eyes are continually toward the LORD,
    For He will pluck my feet out of the net." (Ps 25:15)

    If we could deliver ourselves from sin, from slavery to sin, then Christ died needlessly (Gal. 2:21).

    Blessings,
    Lee
    Quite right - we can not free ourselves from slavery to sin. But that doesn't mean that we can't want to be freed or accept the offer of freedom that has been purchased for us. Of course then we become slaves to Christ - but does that in any way indicate that we can't want to sin or never sin?

  10. Amen Thoughtful Monk amen'd this post.
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    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alaskazimm View Post
    ... then we become slaves to Christ - but does that in any way indicate that we can't want to sin or never sin?
    Certainly sanctification is a process, as is submission to God! But we either serve God or the devil, as Bob Dylan put it, "You gotta serve somebody."

    "You must become a child, you must lose your own will quite by degrees. You must wait for life to be measured out by the Father, and be content with what proportion, and at what time, He shall please to measure. Oh! be little, be little, and then you will be content with little; and if you feel now and then a check or a secret smiting, in that is the Father's love; be not over wise, nor over eager in your own willing, running, and desiring, and by degrees come to the knowledge of your Guide, who will lead you step by step in the path of life, and teach you to follow, and in His own season powerfully judge that which cannot nor will not follow. Be still, and wait for light and strength." (Isaac Penington)

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Are you saying the one who sins is not a slave to sin? And that believers are not slaves to God?
    In a general sense. Everyone sins and so we are "slaves" to sin because of our nature. But you can choose NOT to sin on any particular sin, right? You can choose NOT to steal that candybar, or NOT to tell a lie, etc.

    And we are voluntary "slaves" to Christ. You can choose to disobey if you want.

    No, God uses secondary causes, but sin is indeed in his plan, as in the cross.
    So if you tell a lie, you are saying it is God's will that you told the lie? That you had no choice?



    Source: leenotes

    RO 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"

    First we should notice what Paul doesn't say, he doesn't say that men freely choose to sin, and thus God is just in condemning them. This is a perfect opportunity to give this reply, and solve the knot. Instead, Paul says "God has a right to do what he wants with us":

    RO 9:21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

    Now is God wrong to do this? The motive is what we look at, to determine guilt or innocence. And if God's motive is always good, then he is not guilty in carrying out his plans for a good purpose, and a good result.

    Source

    © Copyright Original Source



    Blessings,
    Lee
    Paul is talking about the Jews as a people and the Gentiles. Not your individual choices.


    If you have no choice and God just created you to sin, or a piece of pottery, then you are nothing more than an object, a toy, a puppet. All of our love for God is just as much a sham as anything else. We only sin because God wills it and we only love him because he wills it. It means nothing. Hypercalvinism is pure evil, Lee.

    If I built two robots and programmed one to love me and the other one to hate me, and then rewarded one and punished the other, how is that fair? Neither robot had free will or chose to do anything other than what I programmed them to do. Their love or hate is meaningless. It's just a sham. a game. They are not real. They don't matter.
    Last edited by Sparko; 07-06-2020 at 01:45 PM.

  13. Amen alaskazimm, Thoughtful Monk amen'd this post.

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