Free will?

[lee_merrill]

The Law itself assumes people have the ability to disobey it. If you have no free will then any disobedience would just be God willing you to disobey.

Notice that "The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase." (Rom 5:20), and "God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." (Rom. 11:32). Yes, God wills people to disobey sometimes.

We would be merely puppets and salvation a play. It wouldn't mean anything.

Salvation is ultimately by God's decision, we may note that the analogies of salvation (new birth, new creation, etc.) are all passive on our part.

To me, that would make God evil.

God uses secondary causes to bring about sin, though:

"Again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, 'Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.' " (2 Sam. 24:1)

"Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel." (1 Ch 21:1)

So God is not the author of sin, but sin is indeed in God's plan, as in the cross.

Blessings,
Lee

[Sparko]

Notice that "The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase." (Rom 5:20), and "God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." (Rom. 11:32). Yes, God wills people to disobey sometimes.


Salvation is ultimately by God's decision, we may note that the analogies of salvation (new birth, new creation, etc.) are all passive on our part.


God uses secondary causes to bring about sin, though:

"Again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, 'Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.' " (2 Sam. 24:1)

"Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel." (1 Ch 21:1)

So God is not the author of sin, but sin is indeed in God's plan, as in the cross.

Blessings,
Lee

But if there is no free will, then God made Satan do it too. God is just a great big puppetmaster putting on a play for his own amusement and we are all just puppets.

The bible talks about "choosing" a lot. Yet without free will, we can't choose.

[lee_merrill]

But if there is no free will, then God made Satan do it too. God is just a great big puppetmaster putting on a play for his own amusement and we are all just puppets.

I believe we will eventually have free will, within the will of God.

The bible talks about "choosing" a lot. Yet without free will, we can't choose.

[Sparko]

You are not making sense. If we have no free will then we can't choose anything. We are just puppets. Robots. Any sin we commit is God's doing through us. So he makes us sin, then punishes us for it. That is evil.

[alaskazimm]

Even a slave can choose to be set free if the choice is given. They may not choose freedom and would rather stay with their master, but the choice is theirs none the less.

[lee_merrill]

You are not making sense. If we have no free will then we can't choose anything. We are just puppets. Robots.

Are you saying the one who sins is not a slave to sin? And that believers are not slaves to God?

Any sin we commit is God's doing through us.

No, God uses secondary causes, but sin is indeed in his plan, as in the cross.

So he makes us sin, then punishes us for it. That is evil.

Source: leenotes

RO 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"

First we should notice what Paul doesn't say, he doesn't say that men freely choose to sin, and thus God is just in condemning them. This is a perfect opportunity to give this reply, and solve the knot. Instead, Paul says "God has a right to do what he wants with us":

RO 9:21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

Now is God wrong to do this? The motive is what we look at, to determine guilt or innocence. And if God's motive is always good, then he is not guilty in carrying out his plans for a good purpose, and a good result.

Source

© Copyright Original Source

Blessings,
Lee

[lee_merrill]

Even a slave can choose to be set free if the choice is given. They may not choose freedom and would rather stay with their master, but the choice is theirs none the less.

"Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?" (Rom. 7:24)

Not "I will!", but rather...

"Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!" (Rom. 7:25)

"My eyes are continually toward the LORD,
For He will pluck my feet out of the net." (Ps 25:15)

If we could deliver ourselves from sin, from slavery to sin, then Christ died needlessly (Gal. 2:21).

Blessings,
Lee

[alaskazimm]

"Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?" (Rom. 7:24)

Not "I will!", but rather...

"Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!" (Rom. 7:25)

"My eyes are continually toward the LORD,
For He will pluck my feet out of the net." (Ps 25:15)

If we could deliver ourselves from sin, from slavery to sin, then Christ died needlessly (Gal. 2:21).

Blessings,
Lee

Quite right - we can not free ourselves from slavery to sin. But that doesn't mean that we can't want to be freed or accept the offer of freedom that has been purchased for us. Of course then we become slaves to Christ - but does that in any way indicate that we can't want to sin or never sin?

[lee_merrill]

... then we become slaves to Christ - but does that in any way indicate that we can't want to sin or never sin?

Certainly sanctification is a process, as is submission to God! But we either serve God or the devil, as Bob Dylan put it, "You gotta serve somebody."

"You must become a child, you must lose your own will quite by degrees. You must wait for life to be measured out by the Father, and be content with what proportion, and at what time, He shall please to measure. Oh! be little, be little, and then you will be content with little; and if you feel now and then a check or a secret smiting, in that is the Father's love; be not over wise, nor over eager in your own willing, running, and desiring, and by degrees come to the knowledge of your Guide, who will lead you step by step in the path of life, and teach you to follow, and in His own season powerfully judge that which cannot nor will not follow. Be still, and wait for light and strength." (Isaac Penington)

Blessings,
Lee

[Sparko]

Are you saying the one who sins is not a slave to sin? And that believers are not slaves to God?

In a general sense. Everyone sins and so we are "slaves" to sin because of our nature. But you can choose NOT to sin on any particular sin, right? You can choose NOT to steal that candybar, or NOT to tell a lie, etc.

And we are voluntary "slaves" to Christ. You can choose to disobey if you want.

No, God uses secondary causes, but sin is indeed in his plan, as in the cross.

So if you tell a lie, you are saying it is God's will that you told the lie? That you had no choice?

Source: leenotes

RO 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"

First we should notice what Paul doesn't say, he doesn't say that men freely choose to sin, and thus God is just in condemning them. This is a perfect opportunity to give this reply, and solve the knot. Instead, Paul says "God has a right to do what he wants with us":

RO 9:21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

Now is God wrong to do this? The motive is what we look at, to determine guilt or innocence. And if God's motive is always good, then he is not guilty in carrying out his plans for a good purpose, and a good result.

Source

© Copyright Original Source

Blessings,
Lee

Paul is talking about the Jews as a people and the Gentiles. Not your individual choices.


If you have no choice and God just created you to sin, or a piece of pottery, then you are nothing more than an object, a toy, a puppet. All of our love for God is just as much a sham as anything else. We only sin because God wills it and we only love him because he wills it. It means nothing. Hypercalvinism is pure evil, Lee.

If I built two robots and programmed one to love me and the other one to hate me, and then rewarded one and punished the other, how is that fair? Neither robot had free will or chose to do anything other than what I programmed them to do. Their love or hate is meaningless. It's just a sham. a game. They are not real. They don't matter.

[lee_merrill]

In a general sense. Everyone sins and so we are "slaves" to sin because of our nature. But you can choose NOT to sin on any particular sin, right? You can choose NOT to steal that candybar, or NOT to tell a lie, etc.

And we are voluntary "slaves" to Christ. You can choose to disobey if you want.

Well, I believe Christians have a choice whom they will serve, there is freedom to that extent, we may choose who is to lead us.

So if you tell a lie, you are saying it is God's will that you told the lie? That you had no choice?

We can choose whom we will serve, as believers, yet even a believer's stumbles may be part of God's plan:

"Some of the wise will stumble, so that they may be refined, purified and made spotless until the time of the end, for it will still come at the appointed time." (Dan. 11:35)

Paul is talking about the Jews as a people and the Gentiles. Not your individual choices.

One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" (Rom. 9:19)

This objection is the very one you are raising! Why does God blame us for sinning if these sins are in God's plan, and in his will? This is about individuals sinning, about individual choices. And Paul does not say we freely choose, and are condemned for that reason.

If you have no choice and God just created you to sin, or a piece of pottery, then you are nothing more than an object, a toy, a puppet.

So why does God give us the analogy of him being the potter, and us being the clay?

All of our love for God is just as much a sham as anything else. We only sin because God wills it and we only love him because he wills it.

"We love because he first loved us." (1 John 4:19)

We can't love God freely from the outset, our love is a response to his love, and then that love is meaningful, because it is meant.

If I built two robots and programmed one to love me and the other one to hate me, and then rewarded one and punished the other, how is that fair? Neither robot had free will or chose to do anything other than what I programmed them to do. Their love or hate is meaningless. It's just a sham. a game. They are not real. They don't matter.

I believe there may be free will down the line, within the will of God.

"To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne." (Rev. 3:21)

But for the unbeliever, there is no freedom, and for the believer, we only right now get to choose whom we will serve.

Blessings,
Lee

[Sparko]

Well, I believe Christians have a choice whom they will serve, there is freedom to that extent, we may choose who is to lead us.


We can choose whom we will serve, as believers, yet even a believer's stumbles may be part of God's plan:

"Some of the wise will stumble, so that they may be refined, purified and made spotless until the time of the end, for it will still come at the appointed time." (Dan. 11:35)

OK.

One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" (Rom. 9:19)

This objection is the very one you are raising! Why does God blame us for sinning if these sins are in God's plan, and in his will? This is about individuals sinning, about individual choices. And Paul does not say we freely choose, and are condemned for that reason.

Jews but also from the Gentiles?[i]

"We love because he first loved us." (1 John 4:19)

We can't love God freely from the outset, our love is a response to his love, and then that love is meaningful, because it is meant.

Well God loves us all, all of the time, so there is never a time when God doesn't love us so that condition is meaningless. There is no time that we can't love God back. But it is still a choice.

I believe there may be free will down the line, within the will of God.

"To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne." (Rev. 3:21)

But for the unbeliever, there is no freedom, and for the believer, we only right now get to choose whom we will serve.

Blessings,
Lee

Again, even unbelievers are loved by God, so claiming they can't love God until he loves them is meaningless. He does love them. Already. So they have the same choice as we did: Choose Christ or Deny Christ.

[lee_merrill]

Though I believe this refers to a believer battling sin in his or her life, unbelievers don't delight in God's law.

And yet when you read his answer, he is talking about Jews and Gentiles as a group isn't he?
...

He is talking about how the Jews as a people are being left out and the Gentiles are being let in.

No, he is talking about "us, whom he called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles" (v. 24) being chosen as objects of his mercy, while others are chosen as objects of wrath.

Well God loves us all, all of the time, so there is never a time when God doesn't love us so that condition is meaningless. There is no time that we can't love God back. But it is still a choice.

But not everyone responds to God's love:

"Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned." (Heb. 6:7-8)

But the point remains that our love has a cause, in the love of God, and thus is not (at least initially) a free choice on our part.

"I love, because He hears
My voice and my supplications." (Ps. 116:1)

Blessings,
Lee

[lee_merrill]

My meat is to do the will of him that sent me
John 4:34

The real secret of an unsatisfied life lies too often in an unsurrendered will.

J. Hudson Taylor


Samuel G. Hardman and Dwight Lyman Moody, Thoughts for the Quiet Hour

[Rushing Jaws]

But if there is no free will, then God made Satan do it too. God is just a great big puppetmaster putting on a play for his own amusement and we are all just puppets.

The bible talks about "choosing" a lot. Yet without free will, we can't choose.