Originally posted by lee_merrill
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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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Free will?
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostBut if there is no free will, then God made Satan do it too. God is just a great big puppetmaster putting on a play for his own amusement and we are all just puppets.
The bible talks about "choosing" a lot. Yet without free will, we can't choose.
Well you condemn a puppetmaster in he burns most of his puppets?
Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? (Romans 9:20)
So what if it is true that God is a puppetmaster?
....WISDOM giveth life to them that have it. (Ecclesiastes 7:12)
...the ISLES shall wait for his law (Isaiah 42:4)
https://philippinesinprophecies.wordpress.com/
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Originally posted by FarEastBird View PostWell, if God is a puppetmaster, then you cannot put God into judgment.
Well you condemn a puppetmaster in he burns most of his puppets?
Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? (Romans 9:20)
So what if it is true that God is a puppetmaster?
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostIf God is just a puppetmaster, then if I condemn him, it is really just God condemning himself, since he made me do it.
I believe your arguments are actually founded on your disbelief that God is a puppetmaster, and you end up making a ridiculous way of responding. I myself WOULD NOT LIKE to be MERE PUPPET, I get that.
But what, if it is true that we have no free will, and we end up as mere puppets, or should we say mere biological machines?...WISDOM giveth life to them that have it. (Ecclesiastes 7:12)
...the ISLES shall wait for his law (Isaiah 42:4)
https://philippinesinprophecies.wordpress.com/
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Originally posted by FarEastBird View PostAnd so? A lot of puppetmasters do such and WE LAUGH.
I believe your arguments are actually founded on your disbelief that God is a puppetmaster, and you end up making a ridiculous way of responding. I myself WOULD NOT LIKE to be MERE PUPPET, I get that.
But what, if it is true that we have no free will, and we end up as mere puppets, or should we say mere biological machines?
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostIf God is just a big puppetmaster and controlling us all for his amusement, then that makes him evil. Because he is the one directly causing all of the suffering and pain in the world. He is the one murdering, raping, and beating.
But he is indeed in complete control, and all fits his plan for good, as in the cross.
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostIf God is just a big puppetmaster and controlling us all for his amusement, then that makes him evil. Because he is the one directly causing all of the suffering and pain in the world. He is the one murdering, raping, and beating.
Or maybe consider this: Do you call yourself a monster when you eat Beef Steak, or eat hamburgers, or eat chicken sandwiches? I we could kill animals with gusto, and not have guilt of evilness, then why would we judge a puppetmaster of burning his puppet?...WISDOM giveth life to them that have it. (Ecclesiastes 7:12)
...the ISLES shall wait for his law (Isaiah 42:4)
https://philippinesinprophecies.wordpress.com/
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Originally posted by FarEastBird View PostI honestly believe that you are not really understanding the issue correctly. If God is a puppetmaster and we are mere puppets, then there will be no good and evil. Our thoughts and emotions are mere biological processes.
Or maybe consider this: Do you call yourself a monster when you eat Beef Steak, or eat hamburgers, or eat chicken sandwiches? I we could kill animals with gusto, and not have guilt of evilness, then why would we judge a puppetmaster of burning his puppet?
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostThat's a good point. But if God makes us feel pain and suffering while inflicting it on us himself, that would make him evil.
“MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD,
NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM;
FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES,
AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES.” (Heb 12:5–6)
So that we may share in his holiness (verse 10).
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostNotice that "The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase." (Rom 5:20).
Romans 3:20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God's sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
Other nations had only a few laws or no rule of law, so that it seemed they never knew right from wrong.
Jonah 4:11So should I not care about the great city of Nineveh, which has more than 120,000 people who cannot tell their right hand from their left, and many cattle as well?
So Israel had a formal code, but it had its disadvantages. Unless you obeyed all the law, you would die. So a law meant to give life gave death. Had it not been for the few who did not now their knee to Baal, Israel would have become extinct like Sodom and Gomorrah. However, they were saved by grace, not compliance, else grace would not have been grace.
IOW, God, in giving law, did not cause sin.
"God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." (Rom. 11:32). Yes, God wills people to disobey sometimes.
Taken in context this means that Israel has become disobedient in refusing to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, not that the whole world was caused to sin morally.
Salvation is ultimately by God's decision, we may note that the analogies of salvation (new birth, new creation, etc.) are all passive on our part.
Caleb 14:24But because My servant Caleb has had a different spirit and has followed Me wholeheartedly, I will bring him into the land he has entered, and his descendants will inherit it.
God uses secondary causes to bring about sin, though:
"Again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, 'Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.' " (2 Sam. 24:1)
"Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel." (1 Ch 21:1)
So God is not the author of sin, but sin is indeed in God's plan, as in the cross.
Blessings,
LeeLast edited by footwasher; 09-04-2020, 12:20 AM.
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostNot so! We can suffer for a good result, correct?
“MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD,
NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM;
FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES,
AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES.” (Heb 12:5–6)
So that we may share in his holiness (verse 10).
Blessings,
Lee
Why bother creating us if we were just puppets on a stage for God? He doesn't need the amusement. We can't really love him, it is just a feeling he makes some of us have while making others not love him.
The verse above it saying sometimes going through a trial and suffering will grow us and teach us. But if we are just puppets, we don't actually learn or grow. It's just an illusion.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostBut he would be responsible for the result and the cause and many times the result is NOT a good result. What about a woman who gets raped and murdered by somebody? If God caused that man to rape that woman and make her suffer and then die, there was no good result. God would have directly caused the pain and suffering by puppeting the rapist to rape her, while puppeting her to feel the pain and suffering. It makes no sense.
And would you rather have evil really triumph sometimes? If suffering is apart from the will and plan of God, then there is indeed senseless suffering.
"The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work." (1 John 3:8)
Not to just mitigate it...
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostNotice that "The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase." (Rom 5:20), and "God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." (Rom. 11:32). Yes, God wills people to disobey sometimes.
Paul is not saying that sinful acts increased after the law was given (which wouldn't make sense), but rather that the understanding that the acts were sinful increased. And God binds us all to disobedience by virtue of sending us into a sinful world where inborn perfection is impossible, but that does not mean He desires that we sin (wills that we disobey). Paul is saying that God can see through all the sin we will commit to the end goal where He has purged the sin from us and helped us to become His children, knowing good and evil and always choosing good. Ya know, with our free will.
Salvation is ultimately by God's decision, we may note that the analogies of salvation (new birth, new creation, etc.) are all passive on our part.
God uses secondary causes to bring about sin, though:
"Again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, 'Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.' " (2 Sam. 24:1)
"Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel." (1 Ch 21:1)
So God is not the author of sin, but sin is indeed in God's plan, as in the cross.
Blessings,
Lee
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostBut if there is no free will, then God made Satan do it too. God is just a great big puppetmaster putting on a play for his own amusement and we are all just puppets.
The bible talks about "choosing" a lot. Yet without free will, we can't choose.
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostAre you saying the one who sins is not a slave to sin? And that believers are not slaves to God?
Would is a variant of will. God Himself says we have wills and condemns us for not submitting them to Him. A slave is not someone without a will, but someone who has either allowed or through coercion has submitted their will to another.
No, God uses secondary causes, but sin is indeed in his plan, as in the cross.
RO 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"
First we should notice what Paul doesn't say, he doesn't say that men freely choose to sin, and thus God is just in condemning them. This is a perfect opportunity to give this reply, and solve the knot. Instead, Paul says "God has a right to do what he wants with us":
RO 9:21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
Now is God wrong to do this? The motive is what we look at, to determine guilt or innocence. And if God's motive is always good, then he is not guilty in carrying out his plans for a good purpose, and a good result.
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Blessings,
Lee
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