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Free will?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Though I believe this refers to a believer battling sin in his or her life, unbelievers don't delight in God's law.


    No, he is talking about "us, whom he called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles" (v. 24) being chosen as objects of his mercy, while others are chosen as objects of wrath.


    But not everyone responds to God's love:

    "Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned." (Heb. 6:7-8)

    But the point remains that our love has a cause, in the love of God, and thus is not (at least initially) a free choice on our part.

    "I love, because He hears
    My voice and my supplications." (Ps. 116:1)

    Blessings,
    Lee
    The Love of God is the cause of love in us, true. But the fact that love in human beings is derived fron God’s Love, does not make the love in them any less real. And we cannot love, unless we can freely choose to do so. And to do so, is a gift of God’s grace inclining our inmost hearts to make use of the freedom that is an essential feature of human nature, so that we willingly and freely choose to act in accord with His Will, that guides and governs all creatures. We become more free by the grace of God acting in us to bear good fruit in us - primarily that Christ might be glorified in us His members, and also that Christ may be formed in us so that we may be conformed to Him. Human freedom is for Him, and is sanctified, restored, completed and redeemed in Him.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      But if there is no free will, then God made Satan do it too. God is just a great big puppetmaster putting on a play for his own amusement and we are all just puppets.

      The bible talks about "choosing" a lot. Yet without free will, we can't choose.
      Well, if God is a puppetmaster, then you cannot put God into judgment.

      Well you condemn a puppetmaster in he burns most of his puppets?

      Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? (Romans 9:20)

      So what if it is true that God is a puppetmaster?

      .
      ...WISDOM giveth life to them that have it. (Ecclesiastes 7:12)
      ...the ISLES shall wait for his law (Isaiah 42:4)
      https://philippinesinprophecies.wordpress.com/

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by FarEastBird View Post
        Well, if God is a puppetmaster, then you cannot put God into judgment.

        Well you condemn a puppetmaster in he burns most of his puppets?

        Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? (Romans 9:20)

        So what if it is true that God is a puppetmaster?

        .
        If God is just a puppetmaster, then if I condemn him, it is really just God condemning himself, since he made me do it.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          If God is just a puppetmaster, then if I condemn him, it is really just God condemning himself, since he made me do it.
          And so? A lot of puppetmasters do such and WE LAUGH.

          I believe your arguments are actually founded on your disbelief that God is a puppetmaster, and you end up making a ridiculous way of responding. I myself WOULD NOT LIKE to be MERE PUPPET, I get that.

          But what, if it is true that we have no free will, and we end up as mere puppets, or should we say mere biological machines?
          ...WISDOM giveth life to them that have it. (Ecclesiastes 7:12)
          ...the ISLES shall wait for his law (Isaiah 42:4)
          https://philippinesinprophecies.wordpress.com/

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by FarEastBird View Post
            And so? A lot of puppetmasters do such and WE LAUGH.

            I believe your arguments are actually founded on your disbelief that God is a puppetmaster, and you end up making a ridiculous way of responding. I myself WOULD NOT LIKE to be MERE PUPPET, I get that.

            But what, if it is true that we have no free will, and we end up as mere puppets, or should we say mere biological machines?
            If God is just a big puppetmaster and controlling us all for his amusement, then that makes him evil. Because he is the one directly causing all of the suffering and pain in the world. He is the one murdering, raping, and beating.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              If God is just a big puppetmaster and controlling us all for his amusement, then that makes him evil. Because he is the one directly causing all of the suffering and pain in the world. He is the one murdering, raping, and beating.
              Again, God uses secondary causes, so he is not the origin of sin. Would it be better if God is not in control of sin? That sin can sometimes cross out the plan of God, and there could be harm done outside of God's plan?

              But he is indeed in complete control, and all fits his plan for good, as in the cross.

              Blessings,
              Lee
              "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                If God is just a big puppetmaster and controlling us all for his amusement, then that makes him evil. Because he is the one directly causing all of the suffering and pain in the world. He is the one murdering, raping, and beating.
                I honestly believe that you are not really understanding the issue correctly. If God is a puppetmaster and we are mere puppets, then there will be no good and evil. Our thoughts and emotions are mere biological processes.

                Or maybe consider this: Do you call yourself a monster when you eat Beef Steak, or eat hamburgers, or eat chicken sandwiches? I we could kill animals with gusto, and not have guilt of evilness, then why would we judge a puppetmaster of burning his puppet?
                ...WISDOM giveth life to them that have it. (Ecclesiastes 7:12)
                ...the ISLES shall wait for his law (Isaiah 42:4)
                https://philippinesinprophecies.wordpress.com/

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by FarEastBird View Post
                  I honestly believe that you are not really understanding the issue correctly. If God is a puppetmaster and we are mere puppets, then there will be no good and evil. Our thoughts and emotions are mere biological processes.

                  Or maybe consider this: Do you call yourself a monster when you eat Beef Steak, or eat hamburgers, or eat chicken sandwiches? I we could kill animals with gusto, and not have guilt of evilness, then why would we judge a puppetmaster of burning his puppet?
                  That's a good point. But if God makes us feel pain and suffering while inflicting it on us himself, that would make him evil.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    That's a good point. But if God makes us feel pain and suffering while inflicting it on us himself, that would make him evil.
                    Not so! We can suffer for a good result, correct?

                    “MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD,
                    NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM;
                    FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES,
                    AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES.” (Heb 12:5–6)

                    So that we may share in his holiness (verse 10).

                    Blessings,
                    Lee
                    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                      Notice that "The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase." (Rom 5:20).
                      What is the context of Romans 5:20? The law was brought in so that the types of trespasses could be increased for Israel, as compared to other nations. This was to preserve her. The increase in awareness caused her to turn to God for mercy.

                      Romans 3:20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God's sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

                      Other nations had only a few laws or no rule of law, so that it seemed they never knew right from wrong.

                      Jonah 4:11So should I not care about the great city of Nineveh, which has more than 120,000 people who cannot tell their right hand from their left, and many cattle as well?

                      So Israel had a formal code, but it had its disadvantages. Unless you obeyed all the law, you would die. So a law meant to give life gave death. Had it not been for the few who did not now their knee to Baal, Israel would have become extinct like Sodom and Gomorrah. However, they were saved by grace, not compliance, else grace would not have been grace.

                      IOW, God, in giving law, did not cause sin.

                      "God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." (Rom. 11:32). Yes, God wills people to disobey sometimes.
                      Romans 11:30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now h receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

                      Taken in context this means that Israel has become disobedient in refusing to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, not that the whole world was caused to sin morally.


                      Salvation is ultimately by God's decision, we may note that the analogies of salvation (new birth, new creation, etc.) are all passive on our part.
                      Not really. Caleb was born again because he remembered God's great works, allowed them to edify him, increase his faith that God would always rescue, unlike the rest of Israel which allowed their fear to decrease their faith.

                      Caleb 14:24But because My servant Caleb has had a different spirit and has followed Me wholeheartedly, I will bring him into the land he has entered, and his descendants will inherit it.

                      God uses secondary causes to bring about sin, though:

                      "Again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, 'Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.' " (2 Sam. 24:1)

                      "Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel." (1 Ch 21:1)

                      So God is not the author of sin, but sin is indeed in God's plan, as in the cross.

                      Blessings,
                      Lee
                      You have to show a situation that proves God causes a person to sin, in not having faith in Christ.
                      Last edited by footwasher; 09-04-2020, 12:20 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                        Not so! We can suffer for a good result, correct?

                        “MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD,
                        NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM;
                        FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES,
                        AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES.” (Heb 12:5–6)

                        So that we may share in his holiness (verse 10).

                        Blessings,
                        Lee
                        But he would be responsible for the result and the cause and many times the result is NOT a good result. What about a woman who gets raped and murdered by somebody? If God caused that man to rape that woman and make her suffer and then die, there was no good result. God would have directly caused the pain and suffering by puppeting the rapist to rape her, while puppeting her to feel the pain and suffering. It makes no sense.

                        Why bother creating us if we were just puppets on a stage for God? He doesn't need the amusement. We can't really love him, it is just a feeling he makes some of us have while making others not love him.

                        The verse above it saying sometimes going through a trial and suffering will grow us and teach us. But if we are just puppets, we don't actually learn or grow. It's just an illusion.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          But he would be responsible for the result and the cause and many times the result is NOT a good result. What about a woman who gets raped and murdered by somebody? If God caused that man to rape that woman and make her suffer and then die, there was no good result. God would have directly caused the pain and suffering by puppeting the rapist to rape her, while puppeting her to feel the pain and suffering. It makes no sense.
                          What about those who die as martyrs? Isn't there a good result for them, and a reward? So suffering, even dying suffering, can have a good result. And I believe that God's children have free will, but not unbelievers (John 8:34,36).

                          And would you rather have evil really triumph sometimes? If suffering is apart from the will and plan of God, then there is indeed senseless suffering.

                          "The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work." (1 John 3:8)

                          Not to just mitigate it...

                          Blessings,
                          Lee
                          "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                            Notice that "The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase." (Rom 5:20), and "God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." (Rom. 11:32). Yes, God wills people to disobey sometimes.
                            Context, lee, context!

                            Scripture Verse: Romans 5

                            13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.

                            © Copyright Original Source



                            Paul is not saying that sinful acts increased after the law was given (which wouldn't make sense), but rather that the understanding that the acts were sinful increased. And God binds us all to disobedience by virtue of sending us into a sinful world where inborn perfection is impossible, but that does not mean He desires that we sin (wills that we disobey). Paul is saying that God can see through all the sin we will commit to the end goal where He has purged the sin from us and helped us to become His children, knowing good and evil and always choosing good. Ya know, with our free will.

                            Salvation is ultimately by God's decision, we may note that the analogies of salvation (new birth, new creation, etc.) are all passive on our part.
                            Everything is "ultimately" by God's decision, since He is the author of life, but sentience is synonymous with free will. We cannot be "self-aware" without the ability to discern between ourselves and others. Discernment and choice are two sides of the same coin.

                            God uses secondary causes to bring about sin, though:

                            "Again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, 'Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.' " (2 Sam. 24:1)

                            "Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel." (1 Ch 21:1)

                            So God is not the author of sin, but sin is indeed in God's plan, as in the cross.

                            Blessings,
                            Lee
                            You're contradicting yourself. According to you, God willed Satan to sin which in turn willed David to sin. There can be no "secondary" in your philosophy. All sin is attributable to God. Which of course is nonsense.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              But if there is no free will, then God made Satan do it too. God is just a great big puppetmaster putting on a play for his own amusement and we are all just puppets.

                              The bible talks about "choosing" a lot. Yet without free will, we can't choose.
                              You're a bit of a dullard, Sparko, but good on you for defending God's honor here. There's hope for you yet.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                                Are you saying the one who sins is not a slave to sin? And that believers are not slaves to God?
                                Scripture Verse: Psalm 81

                                11 “But my people would not listen to me;
                                Israel would not submit to me.
                                12 So I gave them over to their stubborn hearts
                                to follow their own devices.

                                © Copyright Original Source



                                Would is a variant of will. God Himself says we have wills and condemns us for not submitting them to Him. A slave is not someone without a will, but someone who has either allowed or through coercion has submitted their will to another.


                                No, God uses secondary causes, but sin is indeed in his plan, as in the cross.
                                Sin has always been part of His plan, but never part of His desires.

                                RO 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"

                                First we should notice what Paul doesn't say, he doesn't say that men freely choose to sin, and thus God is just in condemning them. This is a perfect opportunity to give this reply, and solve the knot. Instead, Paul says "God has a right to do what he wants with us":
                                He doesn't say it here because he's already said it:

                                Scripture Verse: Romans 1

                                18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

                                21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

                                24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

                                26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

                                28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

                                © Copyright Original Source



                                RO 9:21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

                                Now is God wrong to do this? The motive is what we look at, to determine guilt or innocence. And if God's motive is always good, then he is not guilty in carrying out his plans for a good purpose, and a good result.

                                Source[/cite]

                                Blessings,
                                Lee
                                He would absolutely be wrong if He both caused sin and punished people for it. Paul is describing Molinism, which involves God creating the "version" of us which best suits His perfect purposes. That is, He knows how "we" would act under any and every circumstances and chooses to bring a specific version of us into existence. Therefore our wills and His coexist.

                                Comment

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