Is Everything Racist?

[Leonhard]

Saying that this is cause by systemic racism is bunk, or that it is an existential crisis over race. I have no problem with getting more people into the wild. I used to help at a camp (Camp Hope) that brought inner city kids up from New York to spend weeks in the woods... Not every has to be defined by race.

I wouldn't call it a crisis over race when it comes to camping. There were just a difference there that begged an explanation I think. And the author is quite justified in pointing that out and advocating for change. That he used stronger language than you're comfortable with is not a problem of mine. I used to be a scout, I like the outdoors. If there weren't many of a particular minority I'd be concerned that something was keeping them from that experience. There might not be a problem in the end, after we've investigated it.

In fact like MaxVel points out it might just be a cultural difference, which is perfectly okay.

[seer]

I wouldn't call it a crisis over race when it comes to camping. There were just a difference there that begged an explanation I think. And the author is quite justified in pointing that out and advocating for change. That he used stronger language than you're comfortable with is not a problem of mine. I used to be a scout, I like the outdoors. If there weren't many of a particular minority I'd be concerned that something was keeping them from that experience. There might not be a problem in the end, after we've investigated it.

In fact like MaxVel points out it might just be a cultural difference, which is perfectly okay.

How about completely unjustifiable and inaccurate language? How about a lie?

[Leonhard]

Why campaign for diversity in parks at all? If people of any colour or lifestyle are free to go there, there is no problem.

It depends. Diversity is in and of itself a good and worth promoting for it's own sake. Creating an environment where all are welcome is needed for that. If the lack of such an environment is what is keeping people out then that could be a problem worth dealing with.

Perhaps interested people can form volunteer groups to provide subsidised trips for people that want to go but can't.

A valuable goal if that is what is keeping some group from going there.

We don't see people saying that we need more diversity (meaning an exactly balanced representation) in every area of recreation, leisure or sport, do we? So why campaign for something like this? Are there a lot of black people that want to go to national parks, but can't, because racist people won't let them?

I'd like to see more diversity and inclusivity everywhere. You're quite right that it might simply be a cultural difference, in which case there's no racism at work.

[Leonhard]

racism

I prefer the definitions that sociologists operate with. In particular you're looking here at structural racism. https://courses.lumenlearning.com/co...hapter/racism/

That there are differences (of all sorts) between average people of different cultural groups does not prove that the differences are due to racism.

If there are systematic differences, which are social constructions, that benefits the main group and disadvantages minorities, then those differences are racist inherently.

One of my students just came back for a trip as an exchange student to Denmark, unfortunately she had to return early and suddenly due to the pandemic. However, she loved her time there and says that her host family and the people she met were very welcoming and friendly. Apparently Danish is a difficult language...

It is, I don't fault immigrants who come here in not being able to pick it up. It takes a long time to become proficient with it. American children at the age of eight speak american at a higher level than danish kids speak danish at the same age. The grammar is filled to the brim with awkward exceptions, many words have to be pronounced very different than how they're written, and we generally speak with the tongue at the back of our throat.

Of course, because Danish is hard!

It's not so much a language as it is a disease of the throat.

[seanD]

I'm curious as to what explains that difference.



No, it is good that they're doing well economically. As for why Asian and Indian immigrants in the US are doing better statistically than the norm, I think that can be explained in terms of a selection bias on part of who immigrates, and their descendants getting to benefit from that.

Both groups are a minority so it is not racism.



No, both are a minority.

Seer made such a good point that debunked the utter nonsense of the article in the OP and what FF tried to claim about systemic racism and the poor, yet you broke up his post and totally obfuscated that point. Did you do that intentionally?

[Leonhard]

Seer made such a good point that debunked the utter nonsense of the article in the OP and what FF tried to claim about systemic racism and the poor, yet you broke up his post and totally obfuscated that point. Did you do that intentionally?

It was a statement and two questions. I answered the two questions, and addressed the statement. I'm not sure what you're getting at.

[seanD]

It was a statement and two questions. I answered the two questions, and addressed the statement. I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Maybe you're just dumb then and missed it. There's no equivalence to low income and why blacks don't frequent national parks, thus no such thing as systemic racism of national parks. This racism stuff is getting so pervasive and delusional that it's really ticking me off, and those on the left in here who keep advocating it.

[Mountain Man]

"Did you know that the average black person has darker skin than the average white person? That's racist! Everybody should be allowed to have white skin!"

Most liberal arguments about race really are that stupid.

[Leonhard]

"Did you know that the average black person has darker skin than the average white person? That's racist! Everybody should be allowed to have white skin!"

Most liberal arguments about race really are that stupid.

Nobody is making that argument.

[Mountain Man]

Nobody is making that argument.

"Black people don't like camping = racism" is every bit as stupid.

[Leonhard]

Maybe you're just dumb then and missed it.

You are better than this.

There's no equivalence to low income and why blacks don't frequent national parks, thus no such thing as systemic racism of national parks. This racism stuff is getting so pervasive and delusional that it's really ticking me off, and those on the left in here who keep advocating it.

There is systemic racism inherent to why minorities are economically disadvantaged. All minorities are inherently human and equally gifted. If such systematic differences exists the there is a reason for it. Many of those reasons involves systematic biases that benefits the ethnonational majority. And that is racism. That is simply the definition of structural racism.

Whether minorities being underrepresented in parks is caused by structural racism I’m not sure of. But so far people here have just expressed outrage over it, which is not much of an argument.

[Leonhard]

"Black people don't like camping = racism" is every bit as stupid.

It is, but nobody is making that argument either.

[seer]

It is, but nobody is making that argument either.

When they say this what argument are they making:

The outdoors and public lands suffer from the same systemic racism that the rest of our society does...

[Leonhard]

The outdoors and public lands suffer from the same systemic racism that the rest of our society does...

I thought it was a trivially obvious statement without any specifics. The question I would have is what kind of structural biases exist and how to do something productive about it. It might be that some of the minorities coming there experience bias against them.

Did you read the rest, it some interesting testimonies.

"However, when she camps or hikes as an adult, Tariq said she still faces assumptions that she doesn't belong and a sense of "imposter syndrome" and fear -- even facing questions from rangers about whether she has followed park rules when she doesn't see white visitors asked the same questions.”

[seanD]

You are better than this.



There is systemic racism inherent to why minorities are economically disadvantaged. All minorities are inherently human and equally gifted. If such systematic differences exists the there is a reason for it. Many of those reasons involves systematic biases that benefits the ethnonational majority. And that is racism. That is simply the definition of structural racism.

Whether minorities being underrepresented in parks is caused by structural racism I’m not sure of. But so far people here have just expressed outrage over it, which is not much of an argument.

No, there isn't. The fact there are wealthy and successful blacks (many of whom come from poverty) totally debunks that argument. Blacks have access to the same resources as whites. The disadvantage comes from within their own black communities, but that's a self-inflicted problem that needs to be addressed by the black community itself.