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  • Social Constructs Fail

    I'm hoping to get clarification on a couple points here so as not to derail the "Is Everything Racist" thread.

    First there was this statement

    Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
    There is no biological reality to the concept of race, it remains entirely a social construction.
    I challenged that and was schooled on the term "race"

    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    In short, the fact that all humans are only one biological race has led modern biologists to conclude that race isn't a valid biological classification.
    Here's my problem: To say there are no distinct categories among humans, and that all group differences are merely "social constructs", ignores glaring physical differences. Those differences aren't just skin color (which is still a difference) but tendencies in height, weight, susceptibility to specific diseases, etc.

    If all humanity is one "race" (homo sapiens) then fine. "Race" is an improper term for the subgroups. But the subgroups are not merely "social constructs".

    (end rant)

  • #2
    It's tempting isn't it? After all Asian people do look different from African-Americans, who again look different from Europeans. Visually we seem to be able to sort them into those groups, seemingly. So it's tempting to believe that the differences are real in that they represent more than just familiar likeness. That childrens tend to look like their parents. Take for instance your own family. I imagine there's recognizable traits to it. Take another family. Are those two families different races? I don't think anyone would say so.

    The problem of deliniating humanity into races is that if we want to do that we'd have to do it objectively somehow. Yet no one has been able to construct a set of racial categories. The categories simply explode in numbers. For instance it would be ridiculous to put Australian Aboriginals into the same category of people from Zulu. Yet no matter how you slice the categories the diversity within the categories overlap a lot with the other categories.

    Then when you try to look at it genetically it is even worse, there's hardly any genetic differences between any gene pool we sample. At best there's slight statistical differences, and some entirely neutral marker differences, but it is all functionally identical. All the genes present in jewish gene pools, are present in danish gene pools, in New Yorkian gene pools. And so forth.

    A term that is more precise is ethnicity. People's ancestors tend to come from various geographical areas, and so they have likeness to people from that area. That this likeness tends to be different from another area can be explained entirely in terms of genetic drift and people looking like their next of kin. However the boundaries remain completely fuzzy. No sharp closed off breeding populations exists. Even with the orthodox jews you have a situation where many jews are genetically completely indistinguishable from the palestinians, meaning any difference between those two groups are explained only in terms of geographical position and culture.

    You mention things like susceptibility to disease, and I think that too is explained a lot better by ethnicity than by actual race. People from areas with high degrees of malaria would be more likely to have mutations that confer resistance to it due to selection bias. Sickle-cell anemia does confer protection against malaria, explaining that.

    However I think many times people who think race is real, rather than a social construction, jump to it as an explanation. Why are Koreans better at playing Starcraft? Well, according to race realists, it is because their Asian genes confer better intelligence for that kind of game. Whereas a better analysis reveals that South Korea have a much stronger e-sports and netcafé gaming culture than the west has, where young players get to meet and play eachother getting progresively better. This phenomenon is very real, and might in fact explain most of that difference.

    Comment


    • #3
      OK, my overall impression, which will open me up to all kinds of attack -- is more like MLK addressed --- the content of character, not the color of skin.
      I get along famously with most blacks and Hispanics, as my "weekday job" has me exposed more to them than to whites.

      The problem I have is with the blacks who have this entitlement attitude, or who are angry, or who seem determined to start a fight or argument.
      I can't tell you how many times I'd be stopping a black for speeding, or other violation, and they'd immediately begin the "only reason you stopped me was cause I'm black!"
      I actually had one tell me that who had just smashed a window of an appliance store, and he was putting a color TV (the old bulky kind) in the back of his Caddy.
      Like, if he was white, I'd say "oh, sorry to bother you, carry on!"

      I guess I'm saying that's a social construct. My experience with blacks - particularly when I was police - was often very confrontational, and I was always careful not to be the one to start it.
      I DID realize that I was beginning to be subject (or play a part in) institutional discrimination, and used that as the theme for one of my major college papers, on which I got an A+.

      Again, to me, it's FAR more about content of character than color of skin.
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Ronson View Post
        I'm hoping to get clarification on a couple points here so as not to derail the "Is Everything Racist" thread.

        First there was this statement



        I challenged that and was schooled on the term "race"



        Here's my problem: To say there are no distinct categories among humans, and that all group differences are merely "social constructs", ignores glaring physical differences. Those differences aren't just skin color (which is still a difference) but tendencies in height, weight, susceptibility to specific diseases, etc.

        If all humanity is one "race" (homo sapiens) then fine. "Race" is an improper term for the subgroups. But the subgroups are not merely "social constructs".

        (end rant)
        Similar differences can be observed in a single family even where the parents share the same ethnicity. Given a sufficient number of children you're likely to see a good deal of differences in height, weight, susceptibility to specific diseases and yes even complexion.

        Even in my own family where it is just my brother and I about the only thing we share in the same color of blue eyes. My brother has always been thin as a rail while I'm more chunky. His hair is light brown and thick while mine is dark brown and baby fine. He can get a deep tan during the summer, I'm so white I reflect all light and usually only get red.

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
          Even in my own family where it is just my brother and I about the only thing we share in the same color of blue eyes. My brother has always been thin as a rail while I'm more chunky. His hair is light brown and thick while mine is dark brown and baby fine. He can get a deep tan during the summer, I'm so white I reflect all light and usually only get red.
          This is about me, isn't it?
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            This is about me, isn't it?
            Only if I compare heights.

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              Only if I compare heights.
              Yes, in some cases, it does get piled higher.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                It's tempting isn't it? After all Asian people do look different from African-Americans, who again look different from Europeans. Visually we seem to be able to sort them into those groups, seemingly. So it's tempting to believe that the differences are real in that they represent more than just familiar likeness. That childrens tend to look like their parents. Take for instance your own family. I imagine there's recognizable traits to it. Take another family. Are those two families different races? I don't think anyone would say so.

                The problem of deliniating humanity into races is that if we want to do that we'd have to do it objectively somehow. Yet no one has been able to construct a set of racial categories. The categories simply explode in numbers. For instance it would be ridiculous to put Australian Aboriginals into the same category of people from Zulu. Yet no matter how you slice the categories the diversity within the categories overlap a lot with the other categories.
                Just a quick interjection here. Australian aborigines were always classified as "Caucasion" during my school years because they have been linked most closely to Europeans. The same applies to the Japanese Ainu.

                Then when you try to look at it genetically it is even worse, there's hardly any genetic differences between any gene pool we sample. At best there's slight statistical differences, and some entirely neutral marker differences, but it is all functionally identical. All the genes present in jewish gene pools, are present in danish gene pools, in New Yorkian gene pools. And so forth.

                A term that is more precise is ethnicity. People's ancestors tend to come from various geographical areas, and so they have likeness to people from that area. That this likeness tends to be different from another area can be explained entirely in terms of genetic drift and people looking like their next of kin. However the boundaries remain completely fuzzy. No sharp closed off breeding populations exists. Even with the orthodox jews you have a situation where many jews are genetically completely indistinguishable from the palestinians, meaning any difference between those two groups are explained only in terms of geographical position and culture.

                You mention things like susceptibility to disease, and I think that too is explained a lot better by ethnicity than by actual race. People from areas with high degrees of malaria would be more likely to have mutations that confer resistance to it due to selection bias. Sickle-cell anemia does confer protection against malaria, explaining that.

                However I think many times people who think race is real, rather than a social construction, jump to it as an explanation. Why are Koreans better at playing Starcraft? Well, according to race realists, it is because their Asian genes confer better intelligence for that kind of game. Whereas a better analysis reveals that South Korea have a much stronger e-sports and netcafé gaming culture than the west has, where young players get to meet and play eachother getting progresively better. This phenomenon is very real, and might in fact explain most of that difference.
                Well, then I shall rephrase to "ethnicity" in future for this topic, as opposed to race. However, the colloquial term "race" is usually applied to "ethnicity", otherwise we wouldn't have the term "racism". Like, the colloquial use of "theory" means little more than a suggestion, where scientifically it carries much more weight. So getting definitions straight is important.

                So, is it correct to say that your position is that ethnicity is nothing more than social constructs?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  OK, my overall impression, which will open me up to all kinds of attack -- is more like MLK addressed --- the content of character, not the color of skin.
                  I get along famously with most blacks and Hispanics, as my "weekday job" has me exposed more to them than to whites.

                  The problem I have is with the blacks who have this entitlement attitude, or who are angry, or who seem determined to start a fight or argument.
                  I can't tell you how many times I'd be stopping a black for speeding, or other violation, and they'd immediately begin the "only reason you stopped me was cause I'm black!"
                  I actually had one tell me that who had just smashed a window of an appliance store, and he was putting a color TV (the old bulky kind) in the back of his Caddy.
                  Like, if he was white, I'd say "oh, sorry to bother you, carry on!"

                  I guess I'm saying that's a social construct. My experience with blacks - particularly when I was police - was often very confrontational, and I was always careful not to be the one to start it.
                  I DID realize that I was beginning to be subject (or play a part in) institutional discrimination, and used that as the theme for one of my major college papers, on which I got an A+.

                  Again, to me, it's FAR more about content of character than color of skin.
                  Now I agree with that. What you are describing is a "social construct" that I find far more often among blacks who are native to the U.S. than I find among black immigrants. In fact, the black immigrants I have met don't share that trait at all. It is cultural tendency and not an ethnic one.

                  My objection to what Leonhard posted was the statement "There is no biological reality to the concept of race, it remains entirely a social construction." He apparently meant to say "ethnicity" instead of "race" but I object to that as well. If there was absolutely no physical tendencies whatsoever then the term "racism" could not possibly exist. There would be no foundation for it.

                  I strive to be colorblind in all my dealings with people but there is always a compulsion to profile a person. I know it isn't fair but it is natural to do so. Without profiling (in an evolutionary sense) mankind would have died out long ago. We have to categorize the reality around us or we will be at a disadvantage to others who do. If I see someone in gang attire and another person in a business suit, both approaching me, which one is more likely to be a threat? Such an inability to recognize the difference in my ancestry probably would have prevented my ever being born.

                  I just believe the best way to achieve a colorblind society is not by denying reality and claiming differences are all "social constructs." That's patently false. The best way to get there is to admit there are differences but to resist the urge to profile. That is more honest.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    Similar differences can be observed in a single family even where the parents share the same ethnicity. Given a sufficient number of children you're likely to see a good deal of differences in height, weight, susceptibility to specific diseases and yes even complexion.

                    Even in my own family where it is just my brother and I about the only thing we share in the same color of blue eyes. My brother has always been thin as a rail while I'm more chunky. His hair is light brown and thick while mine is dark brown and baby fine. He can get a deep tan during the summer, I'm so white I reflect all light and usually only get red.
                    But just because there is a lot of blur and gray areas does not negate the more pronounced. You will undoubedtly look more like your family than someone from Mongolia (unless you have a doppleganger living there).

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Ronson View Post
                      But just because there is a lot of blur and gray areas does not negate the more pronounced. You will undoubedtly look more like your family than someone from Mongolia (unless you have a doppleganger living there).
                      And that goes directly back to geneticists confirming Darwin's observation that there are are much wider differences within a race than between them.

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Ronson View Post
                        Now I agree with that. What you are describing is a "social construct" that I find far more often among blacks who are native to the U.S. than I find among black immigrants. In fact, the black immigrants I have met don't share that trait at all. It is cultural tendency and not an ethnic one.
                        EGGcellent point -- we have a number of Nigerians in our congregation, and they are incredibly respectful and polite. I did a "house blessing" for one of our Nigerian couples, and when the grandchildren came running through the living room, my host stopped them and introduced me as the pastor. They IMMEDIATELY (with no prompting from him) sat down on the floor and bowed their heads to me. It caught me off guard, so Sam, my Nigerian friend, took my right hand and placed it on the boy's head, and said, "God Bless", then he put my hand on the girl's head, and "having caught on", I said, "God bless you, little sister".

                        My objection to what Leonhard posted was the statement "There is no biological reality to the concept of race, it remains entirely a social construction." He apparently meant to say "ethnicity" instead of "race" but I object to that as well. If there was absolutely no physical tendencies whatsoever then the term "racism" could not possibly exist. There would be no foundation for it.

                        I strive to be colorblind in all my dealings with people but there is always a compulsion to profile a person. I know it isn't fair but it is natural to do so. Without profiling (in an evolutionary sense) mankind would have died out long ago. We have to categorize the reality around us or we will be at a disadvantage to others who do. If I see someone in gang attire and another person in a business suit, both approaching me, which one is more likely to be a threat? Such an inability to recognize the difference in my ancestry probably would have prevented my ever being born.

                        I just believe the best way to achieve a colorblind society is not by denying reality and claiming differences are all "social constructs." That's patently false. The best way to get there is to admit there are differences but to resist the urge to profile. That is more honest.
                        Having thought about this some more, I think, for ME, it goes back to the things God hates --- a proud look, a haughty spirit --- and I tend to see that more in the blacks with whom I work than the Hispanics or whites.
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          Yes, in some cases, it does get piled higher.
                          And in others it just spreads out.

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            And in others it just spreads out.
                            It do, at that!
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              EGGcellent point -- we have a number of Nigerians in our congregation, and they are incredibly respectful and polite. I did a "house blessing" for one of our Nigerian couples, and when the grandchildren came running through the living room, my host stopped them and introduced me as the pastor. They IMMEDIATELY (with no prompting from him) sat down on the floor and bowed their heads to me. It caught me off guard, so Sam, my Nigerian friend, took my right hand and placed it on the boy's head, and said, "God Bless", then he put my hand on the girl's head, and "having caught on", I said, "God bless you, little sister".
                              My experience is that immigrants overall are pretty happy to be here and have few complaints (in all honesty, the worst immigrants I've met were Russians, but that's a different topic).

                              Having thought about this some more, I think, for ME, it goes back to the things God hates --- a proud look, a haughty spirit --- and I tend to see that more in the blacks with whom I work than the Hispanics or whites.
                              My experience is similar. But I would translate it more as having a "chip on one's shoulder." That seems to be a dominant "social construct."

                              Comment

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