How much is enough?

[Whateverman]

A friend of mine from California (a liberal type actually) called me last weekend to complain about the lockdown regulations in his county. He said after all of this time, he hasn't known a single person who was infected with covid, or known a person who knew a person who was infected, or knew a person who knew a person who was infected (etc.). Family or friends. I told him the same applied to me. However, we have both had the flu this year, and know several people who have had the flu this year. Something isn't adding up right.

I know there are cases and I know there are deaths because I work in the IT department of a hospital, but even that hasn't filled out like it was assumed. The hospital chain had opened tent-treatment centers for covid and most never saw a single case of infection.

It is politically expedient to pad the numbers of infection and deaths due to covid. And since there isn't a single template being used for testing and "cause-of-death" statistics, I am beginning to doubt.

Beginning to doubt what? The numbers?

So, doubt them.

It's not like we have experience doing this, so to me, it's reasonable to expect inaccuracy. It's even more reasonable to not rely upon any one statistic too heavly. Beyond that, I don't see politics playing too much of a part ion the number of infections/deaths. If you disagree, I would challenge you to provide a demonstration of this without assuming anything. For example, a number on CNN is assumed to be biased against Trump because, you know, liberals.

I have yet to see any bias which can't also be explained much more simply as a difference in methodology.

[Ronson]

Beginning to doubt what? The numbers?

So, doubt them.

It's not like we have experience doing this, so to me, it's reasonable to expect inaccuracy. It's even more reasonable to not rely upon any one statistic too heavly. Beyond that, I don't see politics playing too much of a part ion the number of infections/deaths. If you disagree, I would challenge you to provide a demonstration of this without assuming anything.

Orange Man Bad, Orange Man Kills People

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For the Left-leaning media, If death numbers are high it's the president's fault. Motive #1

For example, a number on CNN is assumed to be biased against Trump because, you know, liberals.

I have yet to see any bias which can't also be explained much more simply as a difference in methodology.

https://www.denverpost.com/2020/05/2...nts-hospitals/

claim that states and hospitals inflate coronavirus death counts so they’ll receive more money from the federal government has been circling for weeks on social media, with questions raised anew after Colorado’s health department recently changed how it reports COVID-19 fatalities.

The Denver Post sought to verify whether there’s any financial benefit related to coronavirus diagnoses, and found the government does pay hospitals a higher reimbursement for patients with COVID-19 under the federal Coronavirus Aid, Relief and Economic Security Act, or CARES Act.

But that’s limited to a specific patient population — those who are on Medicare, the federal health insurance that covers people 65 and older.

In Colorado, state health data shows people 60 and older make up 27.4% of all confirmed cases — and 91% of the state’s coronavirus-related deaths.

More money from the feds. Motive #2

[JimL]

At the time many of us thought George W Bush was remarkably uninformed made various oral gaffes but compared to Trump GWB seems almost Lincoln-like.

Mencken was remarkably prescient in his 1920 remark.

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."

But we also ended up with a Barack Obama, so I'm not sure who the plain folk are that Mencken was refering to. I think the problem is that democracy has not been perfected, but rather that it's been corrupted. Though that doesn't excuse the so called inner souls of those who voted for and continue to support Trump.

[JimL]

The anti-American left is destroying us from within, so, yeah.

It's not the left that is supporting and defending the anti-American, anti- democratic, authoritarian, treasonous sociopath. Sorry CP, but that would be you.

[Ronson]

It's not the left that is supporting and defending the anti-American, anti- democratic, authoritarian, treasonous sociopath. Sorry CP, but that would be you.

I'll agree with "sociopath." The others are arguable. But in what way is Trump "authoritarian"?

[JimL]

Orange Man Bad, Orange Man Kills People

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For the Left-leaning media, If death numbers are high it's the president's fault. Motive #1



https://www.denverpost.com/2020/05/2...nts-hospitals/

claim that states and hospitals inflate coronavirus death counts so they’ll receive more money from the federal government has been circling for weeks on social media, with questions raised anew after Colorado’s health department recently changed how it reports COVID-19 fatalities.

The Denver Post sought to verify whether there’s any financial benefit related to coronavirus diagnoses, and found the government does pay hospitals a higher reimbursement for patients with COVID-19 under the federal Coronavirus Aid, Relief and Economic Security Act, or CARES Act.

But that’s limited to a specific patient population — those who are on Medicare, the federal health insurance that covers people 65 and older.

In Colorado, state health data shows people 60 and older make up 27.4% of all confirmed cases — and 91% of the state’s coronavirus-related deaths.

More money from the feds. Motive #2

More money from the Feds because the treatment for Covid-19 patients cost more. The "good" Senator wasn't making an explicit accusation that doctors are deliberately falsifying diagnoses in order that their hospital receives more finacial benefit, it was just an assertion that "they could be doing that." No evidence, just a "they could be doing that."

[Whateverman]

I'll agree with "sociopath." The others are arguable. But in what way is Trump "authoritarian"?

Using the military to clear a path across the street to a photo op is, like, staring right at you.

[Ronson]

Using the military to clear a path across the street to a photo op is, like, staring right at you.

Well, if it could be proven he ordered that, perhaps. But Barr took responsibility for it.

But you know, there isn't a president that has ever lived who would have walked through that mob. They all have places cleared out. They even cleared out the mall in my nearby city when First Lady Michelle visited around 2012.

[Ronson]

More money from the Feds because the treatment for Covid-19 patients cost more.

That's a meaningless statement. Costs more than what? Cancer? No way. A broken finger? Sure.

The "good" Senator wasn't making an explicit accusation that doctors are deliberately falsifying diagnoses in order that their hospital receives more finacial benefit, it was just an assertion that "they could be doing that." No evidence, just a "they could be doing that."

Have you ever known any person or entity to turn away money? If a hospital makes more money then its doctors also make more money. They need not be egregious about it. But according to the CDC, a fatality credited to covid need not have even be tested positive for covid to be counted as such. That's a recipe for corruption. In most states, if a person is elderly and no foul play is suspected, autopsies generally aren't conducted. Cause of death is nothing but a guess.

Anyway, I was asked about motives. That is a motive to skew the numbers.

[Maranatha]

Is there some critical mass of insider-criticism of Trump that will cause right-wing conservatives to question their loyalty to him?

We may get an answer to this question when Trump's niece's new book is released less than two weeks from now.

Perhaps you should consider it is not about loyalty to Trump, rather it is delaying the Marxist take over. Don't take it personally unless it hits the spot.

[Whateverman]

Perhaps you should consider it is not about loyalty to Trump, rather it is delaying the Marxist take over.

No, that's not it. Right-wingers can't be stupid enough to think Muslims are going to take over in 2008, then socialists in 2016, and then Marxists in 2020.

[JimL]

That's a meaningless statement. Costs more than what? Cancer? No way. A broken finger? Sure.

The patients, in order to receive more medicare money have to be admitted with Covid, not die from covid, so skewing the death numbers from covid has nothing to do with the possibility of the kind of fraud you are talking about.
In other words recieving more money has to do with the diagnoses and treatment of, not the death of, the patient.

Have you ever known any person or entity to turn away money?

That's not turning away money, producing fake diagnoses would be fraud and yes people refrain from breaking the law all the time..

If a hospital makes more money then its doctors also make more money.

Not necessarily, besides what do you think, that hospital administrators all over the country are conspiring with the medical staff to falsify diagnoses? Seriously. That's a pretty cynical attitude. I mean there are the Donald Trumps of the world, and we all hear and know about their corruption but not everyone is corrupt and I think it highly unlikely that Hospital Administrations are cospiring with medical staff to falsify diagnoses, to commit fraud, and they're all going along with it.

They need not be egregious about it. But according to the CDC, a fatality credited to covid need not have even be tested positive for covid to be counted as such.

Sounds false. Do you have a source for that.

That's a recipe for corruption. In most states, if a person is elderly and no foul play is suspected, autopsies generally aren't conducted. Cause of death is nothing but a guess.

Again, sounds false with respect to Covid.

Anyway, I was asked about motives. That is a motive to skew the numbers.

Well, money is always a motive to commit fraud, that doesn't mean fraud has been commited. The Republican Senator was just suggesting a possibility, trying to defend the horrific job Trump has done in comparison to the rest od the world in fighting this virus and protecting his citizens. There is no evidence supporting his suggestion, there is no evidence the numbers are purposely skewed by the medical community, it was just a bone he tossed out in defense of Trump for his supporters.

[Maranatha]

No, that's not it. Right-wingers can't be stupid enough to think Muslims are going to take over in 2008, then socialists in 2016, and then Marxists in 2020.

That is why they elected the Existential Threat, the Orange Messiah, to combat the takeovers. That surely must be it.

[Ronson]

The patients, in order to receive more medicare money have to be admitted with Covid, not die from covid, so skewing the death numbers from covid has nothing to do with the possibility of the kind of fraud you are talking about.
In other words recieving more money has to do with the diagnoses and treatment of, not the death of, the patient.

OK, that makes sense.

But according to the CDC, a fatality credited to covid need not have even be tested positive for covid to be counted as such.

Sounds false. Do you have a source for that.

In this post:
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post759762

As far as state autopsies, in my earlier research (which was required for the work I was doing) states won't pay for autopsies unless there is good cause. Any family can pay if they want. I don't have a link for it.

As far as covid specifically, that would be included in the above - AND apply to the CDC explanation.

[Whateverman]

Oh, so it's only whining when someone says something critical of your comments.

Nope. In this context, it's whining when it's off-topic.