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We All Live On Stolen Land...

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
    Conquoring is stealing.
    *cough*Hebrew's Promised Land*cough*

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by seer View Post
      Well of course the Jews, with the Romans we instrumental in the death of Christ. Are we supposed to harm them or take revenge? How are we told to deal with our enemies Whateverman? [...]
      You can go lecture your own brothers and sisters on biblical interpretation. The facts stand:

      The atheist has a better moral ground by which to judge things than the Christian, because the atheist's moral ground isn't polluted by things which divinely justify persecution.

      You know, if you hadn't lied about atheists and moral grounds, I never would have said anything. You're welcome to disagree with my system of morality all you want - but as soon as you lie about and demonize the group I belong to, I'll respond. Righteously.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
        Conquoring is stealing.
        When you are attacked from all sides, and manage to conquer the bad guys and gain some land, is that stealing?
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Whateverman View Post
          The atheist has a better moral ground by which to judge things than the Christian, because the atheist's moral ground isn't polluted by things which divinely justify persecution.
          Maybe that sounded better in your head?
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Whateverman View Post
            Exactly.

            Land disputes are never easy to solve, but if I had my wish, it'd be that the US would immediately revert whatever they legally stole back to native Americans. I know this isn't possible in a practical sense, but it seems to be the closest thing to actual "justice" I can think of in this context.
            Maybe we can give them southern California. But nobody is allowed to leave. The current residents become indentured servants to the Indians to work off reparations to them.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Whateverman View Post
              You can go lecture your own brothers and sisters on biblical interpretation. The facts stand:

              The atheist has a better moral ground by which to judge things than the Christian, because the atheist's moral ground isn't polluted by things which divinely justify persecution.
              I asked you a specific question, why are you hand waving now? And whose atheist's moral ground are you talking about? Mao's? Stalin's? Did they need divine justification to slaughter millions? That is a stupid argument Whatever...

              You know, if you hadn't lied about atheists and moral grounds, I never would have said anything. You're welcome to disagree with my system of morality all you want - but as soon as you lie about and demonize the group I belong to, I'll respond. Righteously.
              Lied about what? Can you show me the atheist's moral guide? Is it written down somewhere? Is your moral sense more correct or valid than Stalin's? If so why? Simply because it is yours?
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                Maybe we can give them southern California. But nobody is allowed to leave. The current residents become indentured servants to the Indians to work off reparations to them.
                OK, I disagree with you on a bunch of issues, but this made me chuckle out loud. Thanks :)

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  I asked you a specific question
                  In order to avoid dealing with your errors, yes, you did.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Whateverman View Post
                    In order to avoid dealing with your errors, yes, you did.
                    So it is OK for you to hand wave but not me?
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Whateverman View Post
                      OK, I disagree with you on a bunch of issues, but this made me chuckle out loud. Thanks :)
                      It's wrong to chuckle with somebody with whom you disagree?
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
                        Actually it was the Jewist leaders and elites that did this. There's no indication that the common Jew was involved in the plotting. (Yes, I know about the mob that chanted crucify him. I also know how easy it easy to form a mob and direct them at what you want.)
                        Regardless of your own opinions Matthew 27:25 employs the term λαὸς [i.e. people, group, tribe, nation] is used and that "blood libel" along with other verses found in the NT was used by the ECFs in polemical sermons and writings to libel the Jewish people as the "Christ killers". The later Christian church and its adherents would use those verses found in the NT and the writings of those ECFs to persecute and murder the Jewish people who lived among them.

                        The notion that the Jewish leaders wanted Jesus dead for blasphemy is merely Christian apologetics.
                        "It ain't necessarily so
                        The things that you're liable
                        To read in the Bible
                        It ain't necessarily so
                        ."

                        Sportin' Life
                        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                          The notion that the Jewish leaders wanted Jesus dead for blasphemy is merely Christian apologetics.
                          How do you know that?
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by seer View Post
                            How do you know that?
                            For information:


                            As for the crime of blasphemy with which Jesus was charged, its definition must next be examined. In the language of the Bible, in Philo, and Josephus, as well as secular Greek, and in the Septuagint, the meaning of the concept of blasphemy lacks precision. In the OT one can blaspheme the deity, but one can also blaspheme the King [Ex.22:28]. Similarly in Josephus (and in the Acts of the Apostles) the verb is successively used with reference to disparaging God, the Jews, the ancestral laws of the Jews and the Law-giver Moses (against Apion 1:43, 23, 223, 279; Acts 6:11). Blasphemy in other words, signifies any kind of disrespectful speech, but clearly not every disrespectful speech is punishable by death.

                            It may be argued that in the age of Jesus the attribution to a man, of actions which are normally associated with God, could also be considered blasphemy. For example, some Galilean scribes wondered whether Jesus was blaspheming when he promised forgiveness of sins to a paralysed man in Capernaum (Mark 2:7), yet none of them clamoured for Jesus’ life. Indeed, in the terminology of charismatics healing and exorcism were the equivalent of forgiveness of sin, but since such charismatic acts were believed to be performed with the help of God, they did not entail anything religiously improper.

                            To establish the precise meaning of blasphemy, we must recall that from biblical times onwards the legal language used by Jews saw a special link between blasphemy and the divine “name” [Lev.24:11-16]. Originally the prohibition concerned any irreverent speech about God, but by the start of the first century CE blasphemy came to be specifically linked to the pronunciation of the Tetragram. The four-lettered divine name, YHWH was unutterable and had to be replaced even in prayer by substitutes such as Lord, Heaven, or Temple. The protection of the name of the God of Israel went so far that both Philo [Special Laws 1:53] and Josephus [Jewish Antiquities 4:207, Against Apion 2:279] condemn abusive references to pagan deities less Gentiles are impelled to retaliate and blaspheme the God of the Jews.

                            The Community Rule of Qumran seems to point in the same direction when it strictly prohibits the enunciation of the sacrosanct divine Name in any circumstances. “If any man has uttered the [Most] Venerable Name even frivolously or as a result of shock or any reason whatsoever when reading the Book [the Bible] or blessing [reciting a prayer], shall be dismissed and shall return to the Council of the community no more.” [6:27-72]. The punishment at Qumran was irrevocable excommunication, the spiritual equivalent among the Essenes of the death penalty [Josephus Jewish War 2:144].

                            Rabbinic literature lays down that the utterance of the sacrosanct Tetragram was an absolute requisite for someone to be charged with blasphemy: “The blasphemer is not guilty unless he pronounces the Name” [Mishnah Sanhedrin 7:5]. Reviling a substitute name was disapproved of, but did not carry the death penalty. It is apposite therefore to underline that in all three Synoptic Gospels Jesus is presented a substitute name for God in his answer to the High Priest and speaks not of the right hand of God, but of “the right hand of the Power” [Mark 14:62; Matt. 26:64; Luke 22:69]. The alleged judgement of the Sanhedrin, “You have heard his blasphemy” [Mark 14:64] appears therefore precipitate.

                            So to recapitulate, no Jewish law of any age suggests that a Messianic claim amounted to the crime of blasphemy
                            [See Vermes, G The Passion]
                            "It ain't necessarily so
                            The things that you're liable
                            To read in the Bible
                            It ain't necessarily so
                            ."

                            Sportin' Life
                            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                              Regardless of your own opinions Matthew 27:25 employs the term λαὸς [i.e. people, group, tribe, nation] is used and that "blood libel" along with other verses found in the NT was used by the ECFs in polemical sermons and writings to libel the Jewish people as the "Christ killers". The later Christian church and its adherents would use those verses found in the NT and the writings of those ECFs to persecute and murder the Jewish people who lived among them.

                              The notion that the Jewish leaders wanted Jesus dead for blasphemy is merely Christian apologetics.
                              Please note that in my post, I didn't attribute a motive or reason for the Jewish leaders wanting Jesus dead. You are imposing 'blasphemy' on to my post and I resent that.
                              "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                              "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                                So to recapitulate, no Jewish law of any age suggests that a Messianic claim amounted to the crime of blasphemy[/I] [See Vermes, G The Passion]
                                Mark 14: Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?” “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.” The high priest tore his clothes. “Why do we need any more witnesses?” he asked. “You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?”

                                It seems that the blasphemy also includes the claim that he was THE Son of God. Not merely a son of God. Why wouldn't they see that as blasphemy, even if it is not in the strictest sense.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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