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We All Live On Stolen Land...

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    One could make the same argument for European Imperialism exhibited within Africa. Tribal rivalries and wars were not unknown prior to the seventeenth century.
    Correct, pretty much everyone was trying to conquer their neighbors. Look at what the Iroquois did to the Huron people.


    How do you think their descendants might feel about the behaviours of the white man?
    About the way the descendants of the Confederacy would feel about Northerners. No one like to lose.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by seer View Post
      Correct, pretty much everyone was trying to conquer their neighbors. Look at what the Iroquois did to the Huron people.
      The difference being that the various Nations of indigenous Americans were all at approximately the same technological level, as of course were the various African tribes.


      Originally posted by seer View Post

      About the way the descendants of the Confederacy would feel about Northerners. No one like to lose.
      Yet both Southerners and Northerners enjoy the same freedoms and rights.

      Correct me if I am wrong but I do not believe that the North put Southerners on to reservations or forced certain Southern groups to relocate to other areas assigned for them, and which led to many of them dying of exposure, disease, or starvation en route.
      "It ain't necessarily so
      The things that you're liable
      To read in the Bible
      It ain't necessarily so
      ."

      Sportin' Life
      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
        The difference being that the various Nations of indigenous Americans were all at approximately the same technological level, as of course were the various African tribes.
        Right and the Europeans weren't - that is why they won (mostly). The point is, that was just how people generally acted back then.

        Yet both Southerners and Northerners enjoy the same freedoms and rights.
        Well Native Americans have the same rights as me.

        Correct me if I am wrong but I do not believe that the North put Southerners on to reservations or forced certain Southern groups to relocate to other areas assigned for them, and which led to many of them dying of exposure, disease, or starvation en route.
        That was all part of us conquering the Continent. Again, that was what men did back then, we were no more guilty than the Iroquois or The Lakota. And native Americans are free to move and live where they please today.
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by seer View Post
          Right and the Europeans weren't - that is why they won (mostly). The point is, that was just how people generally acted back then.
          Imperialism is not an overly attractive human trait.


          Originally posted by seer View Post
          Well Native Americans have the same rights as me.
          Did they always?


          Originally posted by seer View Post
          That was all part of us conquering the Continent. Again, that was what men did back then, we were no more guilty than the Iroquois or The Lakota. And native Americans are free to move and live where they please today.
          That reads as an excuse that attempts to defend the indefensible.

          Should we likewise dismiss the Holodomor, the Armenian Genocide, or the massacres of indigenous Australians merely on the grounds that "that was what men did back then"?
          "It ain't necessarily so
          The things that you're liable
          To read in the Bible
          It ain't necessarily so
          ."

          Sportin' Life
          Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
            Imperialism is not an overly attractive human trait.
            Right, and we in the West are doing much better.

            Did they always?
            Nope, and neither did women or blacks. But they all do now...

            That reads as an excuse that attempts to defend the indefensible.

            Should we likewise dismiss the Holodomor, the Armenian Genocide, or the massacres of indigenous Australians merely on the grounds that "that was what men did back then"?
            But that is a fact, and I don't see the Turks apologizing for the Armenian thing. But hey if one is a materialist all this is just how the evolutionary process worked... I mean do we get upset when one tribe of chimps slaughter and take the territory of another tribe of chimps.
            Last edited by seer; 07-07-2020, 01:33 PM.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by seer View Post
              Right, and we in the West are doing much better.
              In that you are referring only to the wealth which is built on the backs of slavery and historical accident. This success cannot in turn be used to justify what happened.

              But that is a fact, and I don't see the Turks apologizing for the Armenian thing. But hey if one is a materialist all this is just how the evolutionary process worked... I mean do we get upset when one tribe of chimps slaughter and take the territory of another tribe of chimps.
              I am not a materialist. I am a Christian.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by seer View Post
                And so goes the trope. No we did not steal the land per se, we conquered it. Exactly what native tribes were doing to each other long before the white man showed up. We just happened to be the bigger more advanced tribe.
                Conquoring is stealing. It all moral discussions of war, war of conquest, is almost universally considered immoral. If what the settlers did should be considered conquest then the action is pretty much entirely indefensible and should be viewed as a tragic evil which nevertheless happened. Might does not make right.

                And I wonder if the leftists who are complaining about us living on stolen land are willing to give their houses and lands back to the American Indians. Or will they remain blatant hypocrites.
                Some do, however even if you don't that is not hypocritical. It is not wrong at all to point out that great evils occurred in the past, without offering an action to rectify it.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                  Conquoring is stealing. It all moral discussions of war, war of conquest, is almost universally considered immoral. If what the settlers did should be considered conquest then the action is pretty much entirely indefensible and should be viewed as a tragic evil which nevertheless happened. Might does not make right.
                  Yeah. The Inuit would like Greenland back.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Ronson View Post
                    Yeah. The Inuit would like Greenland back.
                    Denmark agrees, and has made no bones about that. That was a mistake, our fault. When Trump asked the danish ambassador whether he could buy Greenland from us that put us in a very embarrassing spot. Greenland is slowly getting their autonomy, and we give them a lot of services during this long transition.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                      In that you are referring only to the wealth which is built on the backs of slavery and historical accident. This success cannot in turn be used to justify what happened.
                      Our wealth was not built on the backs of slavery. It was build mostly by Europeans apart from slavery. And I'm not justifying anything.


                      I am not a materialist. I am a Christian.
                      Right...
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        Our wealth was not built on the backs of slavery. It was build mostly by Europeans apart from slavery.
                        The wealth of the North and the South was built on slaves, they helped build the industrial backbone, and they worked as the cheapest of labor. This is not much different from Europe which also grew wealthy on slave trade, Denmark is no different in that regard. This wealth gave certain countries an edge economically, and allowed them to reach the industrial age faster. After that it is true that slaves disappear as a substantial amount of the income, they had also been prohibited almost universally by that time.

                        And I'm not justifying anything.
                        Then what is the point of your thread? You open it, you point out other groups did terrible things and call it hypocrisy to consider what happened bad.

                        Right...
                        Exactly. You tend to attack moral foundations of a person, instead of their argument. However I am a Christian like you. So if you want to justify your arguments you'll have to examine the morality of it. When it comes to God you and I both believe in Him and consider him the source of truth and goodness, and the be all and end all, and the one who sets what is right and wrong.
                        Last edited by Leonhard; 07-07-2020, 03:16 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                          Denmark agrees, and has made no bones about that. That was a mistake, our fault. When Trump asked the danish ambassador whether he could buy Greenland from us that put us in a very embarrassing spot. Greenland is slowly getting their autonomy, and we give them a lot of services during this long transition.
                          I was joking. You can keep it.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Ronson View Post
                            I was joking. You can keep it.
                            I did like the Greenlanders response "We're not for sale, but we're open for business"

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                              I did like the Greenlanders response "We're not for sale, but we're open for business"
                              What do they export? Ice cubes?

                              Until they can melt that annoying glacier they don't have much to work with.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Ronson View Post
                                What do they export? Ice cubes?

                                Until they can melt that annoying glacier they don't have much to work with.
                                They have both high grade uranite ore (20% uranium in some samples) and they have oil. There is also gold and precious gem stones. As the climate is heating up more and more snow is melting, so while it does not make sense to extract now, it will eventually.

                                Comment

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