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  • Originally posted by Whateverman View Post
    Yeah, it doesn't travel as far, so it's effective.

    Keep up the propaganda, komrade!

    ps. put a gas mask over your head, put your hand up to the filter, and breathe. You feel that warm, moist air?

    Yeah...
    A gas mask is meant to keep particals out, not keep your breath in, you dummy.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

    Comment


    • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
      No, it means that the chances of spreading it are reduced -significantly.
      That's not what it says. It says that ordinary cloth masks MAY protect others, which is the equivalent of saying that they MAY NOT protect others. Claiming that they "significantly" reduce the spread of the China flu is misinformation.
      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
      Than a fool in the eyes of God


      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
        That's not what it says. It says that ordinary cloth masks MAY protect others, which is the equivalent of saying that they MAY NOT protect others. Claiming that they "significantly" reduce the spread of the China flu is misinformation.
        Here is the entire quote:

        Source: CDC

        COVID-19 spreads mainly from person to person through respiratory droplets produced when an infected person coughs, sneezes, talks, or raises their voice (e.g., while shouting, chanting, or singing). These droplets can land in the mouths or noses of people who are nearby or possibly be inhaled into the lungs. Recent studies show that a significant portion of individuals with COVID-19 lack symptoms (are “asymptomatic”) and that even those who eventually develop symptoms (are “pre-symptomatic”) can transmit the virus to others before showing symptoms.

        To reduce the spread of COVID-19, CDC recommends that people wear cloth face coverings in public settings when around people outside of their household, especially when other social distancing measures are difficult to maintain.

        Why it is important to wear a cloth face covering

        Cloth face coverings may help prevent people who have COVID-19 from spreading the virus to others. Wearing a cloth face covering will help protect people around you, including those at higher risk of severe illness from COVID-19 and workers who frequently come into close contact with other people (e.g., in stores and restaurants). Cloth face coverings are most likely to reduce the spread of COVID-19 when they are widely used by people in public settings. The spread of COVID-19 can be reduced when cloth face coverings are used along with other preventive measures, including social distancing, frequent handwashing, and cleaning and disinfecting frequently touched surfaces.

        The cloth face coverings recommended here are not surgical masks or respirators. Currently, those are critical supplies that should be reserved for healthcare workers and other first responders. Cloth face coverings are not personal protective equipment (PPE). They are not appropriate substitutes for PPE such as respirators (like N95 respirators) or medical facemasks (like surgical masks) in workplaces where respirators or facemasks are recommended or required to protect the wearer.

        © Copyright Original Source



        The language here is clearly simply making sure it is understood that masks are not a guaranteed protection, but rather offer imperfect protection. If they didn't write it that way people would be suing them right and left. It reduces the probability of transmission, but it can't prevent transmission.

        This distinction is not something you will ever acknowledge, but others reading may grasp it.

        To put a little more objective quantification on what they can do:

        https://www.the-scientist.com/news-o...covid-19-67646

        Source: above

        While research on cloth masks is much more limited, one group of researchers demonstrated that, in the lab, multilayer masks made of hybrid materials (cotton and silk, for example) could filter up to 90 percent of particles between 300 nanometers and 6 micrometers in size.

        © Copyright Original Source



        They help, they reduce the number of droplets that are put into the air around a person. From the same article:

        Source: above

        One model estimates that if at least 95 percent of people wear masks in public between June and October, approximately 33,000 deaths could be avoided in the US.

        © Copyright Original Source



        The fact that is a model will also cause the anti-maskers here to balk. But nevertheless, the point is large portions of the population wearing masks in places where social distancing is not possible or limited helps reduce the spread. And that, of course, is the point. It's a simple thing to do, and it actually helps. To save 33,000 deaths, at a 4% death/diagnosed (the current US ratio) almost 825,000 diagnosed cases of transmission would have to have been stopped.
        Last edited by oxmixmudd; 07-14-2020, 02:57 PM.
        My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

        If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

        This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
          Originally posted by Whateverman View Post
          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
          Ordinary cloth masks are worthless for keeping viruses at bay. Hold an ordinary piece of cloth over your mouth and exhale. You feel that warm, moist air? You feel the air escaping around the sides and fogging up your glasses?

          Yeah...
          Yeah, it doesn't travel as far, so it's effective.

          Keep up the propaganda, komrade!

          ps. put a gas mask over your head, put your hand up to the filter, and breathe. You feel that warm, moist air?

          Yeah...
          A gas mask is meant to keep particals out, not keep your breath in, you dummy.
          "Particles"

          Just like a cloth/fiber mask, the presence of "warm moist air" doesn't imply anything about its effectiveness.
          Last edited by Whateverman; 07-14-2020, 04:00 PM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
            A gas mask is meant to keep particals out, not keep your breath in, you dummy.
            Actually a 'gas' mask can come with different filters to filter out 'various gases' with also particulate filters. They are tight sealing on the face and only source of air is through the filters.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
              Actually a 'gas' mask can come with different filters to filter out 'various gases' with also particulate filters. They are tight sealing on the face and only source of air is through the filters.
              KEErect --- the old style had those "canisters" filters that screwed on, and could be replaced in the field based on the offending agent.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                ...They are tight sealing on the face and only source of air is through the filters.
                Which, of course, is why firefighters are traditionally not allowed to have facial hair that would compromise the seal.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Whateverman View Post
                  "Particles"

                  Just like a cloth/fiber mask, the presence of "warm moist air" doesn't imply anything about its effectiveness.
                  Gas mask filters are specially designed to remove dangerous particles. Ordinary cloth is not.

                  Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                  But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                  Than a fool in the eyes of God


                  From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                    Here is the entire quote:

                    Source: CDC

                    COVID-19 spreads mainly from person to person through respiratory droplets produced when an infected person coughs, sneezes, talks, or raises their voice (e.g., while shouting, chanting, or singing). These droplets can land in the mouths or noses of people who are nearby or possibly be inhaled into the lungs. Recent studies show that a significant portion of individuals with COVID-19 lack symptoms (are “asymptomatic”) and that even those who eventually develop symptoms (are “pre-symptomatic”) can transmit the virus to others before showing symptoms.

                    To reduce the spread of COVID-19, CDC recommends that people wear cloth face coverings in public settings when around people outside of their household, especially when other social distancing measures are difficult to maintain.

                    Why it is important to wear a cloth face covering

                    Cloth face coverings may help prevent people who have COVID-19 from spreading the virus to others. Wearing a cloth face covering will help protect people around you, including those at higher risk of severe illness from COVID-19 and workers who frequently come into close contact with other people (e.g., in stores and restaurants). Cloth face coverings are most likely to reduce the spread of COVID-19 when they are widely used by people in public settings. The spread of COVID-19 can be reduced when cloth face coverings are used along with other preventive measures, including social distancing, frequent handwashing, and cleaning and disinfecting frequently touched surfaces.

                    The cloth face coverings recommended here are not surgical masks or respirators. Currently, those are critical supplies that should be reserved for healthcare workers and other first responders. Cloth face coverings are not personal protective equipment (PPE). They are not appropriate substitutes for PPE such as respirators (like N95 respirators) or medical facemasks (like surgical masks) in workplaces where respirators or facemasks are recommended or required to protect the wearer.

                    © Copyright Original Source



                    The language here is clearly simply making sure it is understood that masks are not a guaranteed protection, but rather offer imperfect protection. If they didn't write it that way people would be suing them right and left. It reduces the probability of transmission, but it can't prevent transmission.

                    This distinction is not something you will ever acknowledge, but others reading may grasp it.

                    To put a little more objective quantification on what they can do:

                    https://www.the-scientist.com/news-o...covid-19-67646

                    Source: above

                    While research on cloth masks is much more limited, one group of researchers demonstrated that, in the lab, multilayer masks made of hybrid materials (cotton and silk, for example) could filter up to 90 percent of particles between 300 nanometers and 6 micrometers in size.

                    © Copyright Original Source



                    They help, they reduce the number of droplets that are put into the air around a person. From the same article:

                    Source: above

                    One model estimates that if at least 95 percent of people wear masks in public between June and October, approximately 33,000 deaths could be avoided in the US.

                    © Copyright Original Source



                    The fact that is a model will also cause the anti-maskers here to balk. But nevertheless, the point is large portions of the population wearing masks in places where social distancing is not possible or limited helps reduce the spread. And that, of course, is the point. It's a simple thing to do, and it actually helps. To save 33,000 deaths, at a 4% death/diagnosed (the current US ratio) almost 825,000 diagnosed cases of transmission would have to have been stopped.
                    Right, "Cloth face coverings may help prevent people who have COVID-19 from spreading the virus to others." I quoted that, but in the English language, saying that something "may" happen is equivalent to saying that it "may not" happen, so it would be exactly as accurate to say, "Cloth face coverings may not help prevent people who have COVID-19 from spreading the virus to others." I mean, the CDC dresses it up with lots of additional information, but the bottom line is that ordinary cloth masks may or may not help prevent the spread of the China flu -- probably leaning towards "not", not because masks are ineffective in an ideal situation but because that ideal situation simply does not exist in day to day life.

                    The fact is that simply walking past someone in a grocery store is one of the least likely ways of catching the Wuhan virus. The virus drops to the ground literally within seconds after being exhaled -- that's where the magic "six feet" measurement came from, because the time it takes the average person to traverse six feet is longer than it takes for the Wuhan virus to fall to the ground -- and your chances of walking through a cloud of China flu particles at the exact perfect moment to inhale enough of the critters actually infect you is probably about the same as winning the Powerball. Lengthy face to face interaction with an infected person? Sure, a mask will more likely than not offer some benefit, but casual interaction with the public? If you think that's too risky then you're probably one of those people who greatly overestimates his chances of winning the lottery.

                    (As an aside, I will never understand why people who preach "science" are so in love models when models are not science. A model is nothing more than a hypothesis. Science is about what has actually been proven with repeated observation and testing. So when someone says "science" but they really mean "models" then they're just trying to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge.)
                    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                    Than a fool in the eyes of God


                    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                    Comment


                    • MM,

                      I'm just curious to know why, if masks don't work, you believe that so many other countries have concluded that they do work?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by DivineOb View Post
                        MM,

                        I'm just curious to know why, if masks don't work, you believe that so many other countries have concluded that they do work?
                        Exactly! And why did countries close down who don't have much international travel?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          Which, of course, is why firefighters are traditionally not allowed to have facial hair that would compromise the seal.
                          I was an OSHA supervisor for private environmental firms in the 1980's, and had to shave to test and use the masks. The training and recertification was miserable experiences.
                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by DivineBoob View Post
                            MM,

                            I'm just curious to know why, if masks don't work, you believe that so many other countries have concluded that they do work?
                            I never said "masks don't work". They do offer some benefit in controlled situations like at a hospital. They offer little if any benefit walking through a grocery store. So why are states and even whole countries mandating masks? Because it's a visible sign to the people that the government is doing something even if that "something" is largely an empty gesture.
                            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                            Than a fool in the eyes of God


                            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                              I never said "masks don't work". They do offer some benefit in controlled situations like at a hospital. They offer little if any benefit walking through a grocery store. So why are states and even whole countries mandating masks? Because it's a visible sign to the people that the government is doing something even if that "something" is largely an empty gesture.
                              How do you account for so many countries which made use of masks doing so much better than those which did not strongly push for mask usage? As you are aware my wife is from Hong Kong and they make heavy use of masks and have suffering so much less than the USA despite having so much higher population density and use of public transportation. The Czech Republic took the HK approach and also greatly minimized their COVID impact.

                              I just don't get why you want to die on this hill of all hills.

                              When you look at the United States why don't you rapidly conclude that every aspect of our response is automatically suspect until proven *right*?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by DivineOb View Post
                                How do you account for so many countries which made use of masks doing so much better than those which did not strongly push for mask usage? As you are aware my wife is from Hong Kong and they make heavy use of masks and have suffering so much less than the USA despite having so much higher population density and use of public transportation. The Czech Republic took the HK approach and also greatly minimized their COVID impact.

                                I just don't get why you want to die on this hill of all hills.

                                When you look at the United States why don't you rapidly conclude that every aspect of our response is automatically suspect until proven *right*?
                                It was obviously the masks that made the difference. The masks also helped keep coronavirus from spreading among people in Antarctica

                                Comment

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