Is Black Lives Matter Marxist? No and Yes.

[JimL]

So you are equating Marxism with a religion? Interesting.

I will readily admit that we as fallable Christians do not always follow the ideals and teachings of our Lord Jesus. I will also admit that we will never see those ideals accomplished until Jesus returns. But we do try and many times succeed in caring and compassion and taking care of the needy, etc.

You could better see those ideals accomplished if you didn't all always vote against them.

Marxism on the other hand never even tries to fulfill these ideals you claim they represent. They have never even come close to those ideals. So I am not questioning the shared ideals themselves, but does Marxism really have those ideals in common with us at all? The only equality in Marxism is in misery. Everyone is equally miserable and poor. Except those at the top of course. The Elite Ruling class that Marxism claims they want to eliminate seems to be the first thing they instate and then use to oppress the people they claim they are helping. Marxism is a lie.

Marxism is not a person, it doesn't try to accomplish its ideals. That would be up to people. And I don't believe anyone here has advocated for Marxism itself as a system of governance. The point being made I think is that Marxism in and of itself is no more of a bogeyman than is unregulated Capitalism. Karl Marx, though an atheist himself, was actually an admirerer of Jesus as philosopher.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

So you are equating Marxism with a religion? Interesting.

They are both ideologies. And those who have alleged to be adherents to both have committed the vilest of atrocities in the name of those respective ideologies.

I will readily admit that we as fallable Christians do not always follow the ideals and teachings of our Lord Jesus.

That is all too obvious.

I will also admit that we will never see those ideals accomplished until Jesus returns.

That is a theological viewpoint that rather pushes the issue on to the back burner.

But we do try and many times succeed in caring and compassion and taking care of the needy, etc.

Some of you do but then many Christian charitable concerns also have their "agenda". Following behind the medical aid and the schools etc. come the bible sellers with their inevitable sales pitch.

Marxism on the other hand never even tries to fulfill these ideals you claim they represent.

Marxist governments have also taken care of the needy and the sick. Universal healthcare and housing - the latter might not have been quite up to modern US requirements - but people had a roof over their heads, their needs were met, and their children were educated.

They have never even come close to those ideals.

Nor has Christianity.

So I am not questioning the shared ideals themselves, but does Marxism really have those ideals in common with us at all?

As I wrote earlier our failure to meet our ideals should not prevent us from striving to attain them.

The only equality in Marxism is in misery. Everyone is equally miserable and poor. Except those at the top of course. The Elite Ruling class that Marxism claims they want to eliminate seems to be the first thing they instate and then use to oppress the people they claim they are helping. Marxism is a lie.

Using the comparison with Christianity one might look at the wealth of the various churches and the lifestyles of many religious leaders and draw the same conclusions.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Some of it may be your style of writing... I do appreciate your... um..... "style".

As I wrote to Sparko it is a long acquired habit that goes with the job.

Apparently, as it has been through the ages - it's the secular golden rule -- whoever has the gold makes the rules.

In a democracy the people decide what is the common good by voting for those who [at least initially] agree to bring those benefits about.

No such claim was made on my behalf, so, like you've asked others...

You did write”nothing like the anarchy in our Country that's being done at the direction of persons who boast of being of Marxist training”.

I have a meeting shortly with our police chief concerning that very issue - I'll be happy to address that when I get back.

I shall look forward to your comments.

Yes, I'm well aware of that. What WOULD WE DO without your vast knowledge on every single topic*?

I do hope an educated woman does not overly alarm some of you. [Likewise a friendly dig]

[Ronson]

Some of you do but then many Christian charitable concerns also have their "agenda". Following behind the medical aid and the schools etc. come the bible sellers with their inevitable sales pitch.

Yeah? So? Talk about looking a gift horse in the mouth.

As a one-time grant writer for a Christian food bank, and had to research charities in the U.S. as well as some international ones, I'd estimate that 85%-90% of them were Christian. Another 10% were Jewish and about 5% were secular. These are the ones that fed people, clothed them, and provided shelter.

Of the secular charities, nearly all of them focused on scholarships, environment, or some specific disease that was started by a person who suffered from that specific disease.

[seer]

OK, VERY good meeting with the Chief, and will post about that later.

You said Chief - racist!

[Cow Poke]

As I wrote to Sparko it is a long acquired habit that goes with the job.

May I ask what is your native language?

In a democracy the people decide what is the common good by voting for those who [at least initially] agree to bring those benefits about.

Which is why our founders chose a representative (federal) republic.

You did write”nothing like the anarchy in our Country that's being done at the direction of persons who boast of being of Marxist training”.

To which you responded "Is the USA really in a state of anarchy?" -- that anarchy is "being done" in no way implies that the entire country is "in a state of anarchy".

I shall look forward to your comments.

Honest? On what? You'll have to remind me.

I do hope an educated woman does not overly alarm some of you. [Likewise a friendly dig]

Meh, I've been married to one for 45 years - I've developed selective hearing.

[Cow Poke]

You said Chief - racist!

So, meeting with the Chief went very well - I'm even more impressed with him than I was. I had met him briefly on a couple occasions (including when my friend James died, and was revived by a neighbor), but this meeting went quite well.
They had been looking for a way calm down some of the BLM rhetoric, and he loves the idea of me approaching the (probably unwitting) protagonist and turning the tables, politely.

Where "they" had been demanding "we want to see your written plan of action" for when something goes wrong, I will ask "them" for THEIR plan of action for when something goes wrong.

"Something" could be as simple as a person being arrested, having a heart condition, and having a heart attack while being put in a jail cell. That would be an "in custody death", and could trigger protests and/or riots.

The second in command at the PD is a Captain who is black, and a good friend of my son-in-law, and a friend of mine. NEXT step is to take him to lunch and lay out my plan, and get his perspective. He knows all parties involved.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

May I ask what is your native language?

I am fluent in Academian!

Which is why our founders chose a representative (federal) republic.

Which was no doubt quite sufficient for thirteen colonies where only white property owners could vote.

To which you responded "Is the USA really in a state of anarchy?" -- that anarchy is "being done" in no way implies that the entire country is "in a state of anarchy".

What therefore was the purpose your original comment?

Honest? On what? You'll have to remind me.

You wrote” is nothing like the anarchy in our Country that's being done at the direction of persons who boast of being of Marxist training. ”

To which I replied “ As to "Marxist training I am not entirely sure what that phrase means."

And to which you then responded “I have a meeting shortly with our police chief concerning that very issue - I'll be happy to address that when I get back., which elicited my reply “ I shall look forward to your comments.”

Meh, I've been married to one for 45 years - I've developed selective hearing.

I did make it clear that, like yourself, I was also engaging in a “friendly dig”.

[Cow Poke]

I am fluent in Academian!

Cute, but still asking. Please?

Which was no doubt quite sufficient for thirteen colonies where only white property owners could vote.

Like any other system, money has managed to corrupt it. I believe that could happen with pretty much any other system.

What therefore was the purpose your original comment?

That we RISK becoming a nation of anarchy --- the seeds are being sown.

You wrote” If so it must have been omitted from the international press. As to "Marxist training"”

To which I replied “ I am not entirely sure what that phrase means."

And to which you then responded “[iI have a meeting shortly with our police chief concerning that very issue - I'll be happy to address that when I get back.[/i], which elicited my reply “ I shall look forward to your comments.”

Ah, OK. Thanks. Lemme make that a separate post.

I did make it clear that, like yourself, I was also engaging in a “friendly dig”.

Yes, and I was 'friendly digging' in return.

[Cow Poke]

...As to "Marxist training" - I am not entirely sure what that phrase means.

From their own website...

WOW.... there's been quite a bit of updating on their website -- it looks like they have removed some of the sections that were very clearly anti-God, anti-nuclear family, anti-American....
I'm gonna have to get back to you on this. Even the "co-founders" page has changed, and the pictures of the women look much less "militant".

Meanwhile....

Black Lives Matter co-founder describes herself as ‘trained Marxist’

Black Lives Matter co-founder Patrisse Cullors said in a newly surfaced video from 2015 that she and her fellow organizers are “trained Marxists” – making clear their movement’s ideological foundation, according to a report.

Cullors, 36, was the protégé of Eric Mann, former agitator of the Weather Underground domestic terror organization, and spent years absorbing the Marxist-Leninist ideology that shaped her worldview, Breitbart News reported.

“The first thing, I think, is that we actually do have an ideological frame. Myself and Alicia in particular are trained organizers,” she said, referring to BLM co-founder Alicia Garza.

“We are trained Marxists. We are super-versed on, sort of, ideological theories. And I think that what we really tried to do is build a movement that could be utilized by many, many black folk,” Cullors added in the interview with Jared Ball of The Real News Network.

While promoting her book “When They Call You a Terrorist: A Black Lives Matter Memoir” in 2018, Cullors described her introduction to and support for Marxist ideology.

She described to Democracy Now! how she became a trained organizer with the Labor/Community Strategy Center, which she called her “first political home” under the mentorship of Mann, its director, Breitbart reported.

The center, which describes its philosophy as “an urban experiment,” uses grassroots organization to “focus on Black and Latino communities with deep historical ties to the long history of anti-colonial, anti-imperialist, pro-communist resistance to the US empire,” according to the outlet.

It also expresses its appreciation for the work of the US Communist Party, “especially Black communists,” as well as its support for “the great work of the Black Panther Party, the American Indian Movement, Young Lords, Brown Berets, and the great revolutionary rainbow experiments of the 1970s,” Breitbart reported.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Cute, but still asking. Please?

I fail to see what relevance my first language may have to our exchanges.

Like any other system, money has managed to corrupt it. I believe that could happen with pretty much any other system.

There is a saying that is attributed to a Russian proverb that “when money speaks all law is silent”. Irrespective of its linguistic origin, that aphorism holds to be remarkably apposite.

That we RISK becoming a nation of anarchy --- the seeds are being sown.

Yet is that really in danger of occurring? The US experienced major socio-political upheavals in the 1970s yet here you still are with a Republican populist President, and the Constitution [despite the recent attacks upon it] still holding.

Ah, OK. Thanks. Lemme make that a separate post.

Thank you.

Yes, and I was 'friendly digging' in return.

There is an English term known as “joshing” that would apply to some of our comments to one another.

[Cow Poke]

I fail to see what relevance my first language may have to our exchanges.

Merely a curiosity. I suspect French, but... whatever.

There is a saying that is attributed to a Russian proverb that “when money speaks all law is silent”. Irrespective of its linguistic origin, that aphorism holds to be remarkably apposite.

American politics has become incredibly corrupted by money, in my opinion.

Yet is that really in danger of occurring?

Mostly in Democrat controlled cities and states, yes.

The US experienced major socio-political upheavals in the 1970s yet here you still are with a Republican populist President, and the Constitution [despite the recent attacks upon it] still holding.

I have never seen it like this before, and I've been on the planet well before the 70s.

Thank you.

That task has proven to be more difficult than I had supposed.

There is an English term known as “joshing” that would apply to some of our comments to one another.

You'll find that I'm a pretty light-hearted 'opponent', and, unless you just get nasty, I'm very happy to treat you as a friend, such as a "friend" can be on this medium.

And, yes, "joshing" is a more colloquial term - in our region of the country, we'd say "I'm just messin' with you".

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

From their own website...

I fail to see any inherent "danger" in the aspirations that are contained in that link. Certainly not in a modern and pluralistic society. The group also has genuine historical grievances that should rightly be addressed.

WOW.... there's been quite a bit of updating on their website -- it looks like they have removed some of the sections that were very clearly anti-God, anti-nuclear family, anti-American...

Again being anti-religion [ "anti-God"] is hardly an unknown in the USA. Several of your FFs were Deists if not Agnostic/Atheists. George Washington rarely went to church and the famous story/painting of him kneeling in prayer in Valley Forge is a myth. Bishop William White, who officiated in some of the churches Washington occasionally attended wrote in a letter that no “degree of recollection will bring to my mind any fact which would prove General Washington to have been a believer in the Christian revelation.”

Furthermore Washington refused to have a priest or religious rituals at his deathbed, which is a startling lapse if we are to accept that he was a truly devout believer.

The nuclear family is also a very recent social phenomenon. And I am not entirely sure what “anti-American” actually means. If it is a blanket pejorative to encompass every criticism of America in all its dealings, then I stand with the “anti-Americans” as I would with anyone else who drew attention to their country’s hypocrisies and/or injustices.

Every nation should be criticised for what are perceived as its wrong-doings. It does not necessarily follow that those criticisms will always be justified in every single instance, but no one should be intimidated into keeping silent about what they perceive to be wrong for fear of being labelled “anti[insert country of choice here].

I'm gonna have to get back to you on this.

Fair enough

Meanwhile....

Black Lives Matter co-founder describes herself as ‘trained Marxist’

There is a Jewish joke about two Rabbis in a Yeshiva discussing the Torah. One turns to the other in exasperation and exclaims “We know what the Almighty wrote but what did He mean when He wrote it?”

I think that exasperation can also be applied to the writings of Karl Marx. As in philosophy [and some religions] there are also various schools of Marxism.

There is also that old Marxist/Socialist slogan “Educate, Agitate, Organise” which seems to be part of this present movement. However, engaging the populace in political matters should not automatically be considered detrimental to the robust health of a large pluralistic society like that of the USA.

I must take your second link with the proverbial spoonful of salt. The New York Post and Breitbart have their own bias and of course their own agenda. I would have preferred a video or transcript of an actual interview rather than selected quotes.

[Cow Poke]

I fail to see any inherent "danger" in the aspirations that are contained in that link. Certainly not in a modern and pluralistic society. The group also has genuine historical grievances that should rightly be addressed.

As I said, the website is changed. I'm trying to find an archived copy. Apparently, they have been getting a lot of push-back from conservative sources attacking their Marxist roots.

Again being anti-religion [ "anti-God"] is hardly an unknown in the USA. Several of your FFs were Deists if not Agnostic/Atheists. George Washington rarely went to church and the famous story/painting of him kneeling in prayer in Valley Forge is a myth. Bishop William White, who officiated in some of the churches Washington occasionally attended wrote in a letter that no “degree of recollection will bring to my mind any fact which would prove General Washington to have been a believer in the Christian revelation.”

Furthermore Washington refused to have a priest or religious rituals at his deathbed, which is a startling lapse if we are to accept that he was a truly devout believer.

The nuclear family is also a very recent social phenomenon. And I am not entirely sure what “anti-American” actually means. If it is a blanket pejorative to encompass every criticism of America in all its dealings, then I stand with the “anti-Americans” as I would with anyone else who drew attention to their country’s hypocrisies and/or injustices.

Every nation should be criticised for what are perceived as its wrong-doings. It does not necessarily follow that those criticisms will always be justified in every single instance, but no one should be intimidated into keeping silent about what they perceive to be wrong for fear of being labelled “anti[insert country of choice here].

There's enough there for a whole new thread.

Fair enough

I try to be, though I never promise I'm fair, or that life is fair.

There is a Jewish joke about two Rabbis in a Yeshiva discussing the Torah. One turns to the other in exasperation and exclaims “We know what the Almighty wrote but what did He mean when He wrote it?”

I think that exasperation can also be applied to the writings of Karl Marx. As in philosophy [and some religions] there are also various schools of Marxism.

What we have seen from the Marxists in our country includes the wanton destruction of history, rioting and looting, "stature topplers" (a quaint way to describe anarchists).

There is also that old Marxist/Socialist slogan “Educate, Agitate, Organise” which seems to be part of this present movement. However, engaging the populace in political matters should not automatically be considered detrimental to the robust health of a large pluralistic society like that of the USA.

The whole "defund the police" movement has shown how much worse off cities have become already when adopting the "new ideas".

I must take your second link with the proverbial spoonful of salt. The New York Post and Breitbart have their own bias and of course their own agenda. I would have preferred a video or transcript of an actual interview rather than selected quotes.

OK, here's the problem with that rationale --- American is VERY divided, including the media. The media outlets who are in agreement with the "new ideas" are certainly NOT going to be critical of anything they support. We USED to have honest journalism (or maybe I'm naive about that, too) but today's "journalism" is more about BECOMING or MAKING the news than it is reporting it. Dismissing something out of hand because it comes from a conservative leaning source is not really legitimate.

But, yes, an actual video, to me, is even better than a transcript. Still looking into this.

[Cow Poke]

...I would have preferred a video or transcript of an actual interview rather than selected quotes.

About 7 minutes in, "we are trained Marxists".